MS2 Setup Help

[Maverick H1L]

Made some changes. Adjusted AE and also am using MAPDot with 85% TPSDot and 15% MAPDot to figure out AE. Running a TON better now.

New question. Seems to me a good portion of my issues now are because of the spark advance. Can't seem to get the mixture leaner because I'm not running enough spark. Keeping in mind my knock sensor DOES NOT WORK (it's not plugged in and the MSII seems to have a problem in that it seems to always be seeing spark knock when the sensor isn't even connected), how much spark can I safely put in this thing? Also keep in mind I'm running 11.4:1 approximate compression. I was thinking that I don't want to run even stock timing (thanks for those tables) because the mixture in the chambers would be hotter than stock due to higher compression and cause preignition issues. But now I'm not sure? I'm running approximately 36 degrees max timing at around 40 kPa at about 3800 RPM and everything else is lower than that (not even hitting 30 degrees in the 100 kPa line). I don't currently have the current tune on this computer and the tuning laptop is currently having a brain fart and doesn't want to connect to my network, otherwise I would have up the current MSQ. Forgot to get a datalog today, unfortunately.

Still dealing with a slight exhaust leak. I'm either going to have to weld the header flanges where I nicked the ports while cutting out the bottoms of the bolt holes or I'm going to have to replace the headers . Doesn't seem to be much exhaust leaking at idle and light loads but if I mash the go pedal all heck breaks loose and the engine sounds like garbage out the leaks.

And still looking for small port 3100 rockers...

But I finally fixed the fuel pump woes. I ran a new heavy ground wire straight to the battery's body ground and put in a relay under the dash running off of my auxillary fuse panel. Fuel pump finally has battery power. Now if I could only get it quieter so I can hear ANYTHING over it...

[Maverick H1L]

Well, things are going better now. Sort of. Found out that a good portion of the noises when romping on the go pedal were lean knocks thanks to the WBO2. Trying to use the autotune to get the lower side of the VE table set is proving to be a pain in the butt. It keeps wanting to set lean, especially in the accel bands where the minimum AFR is set to about 13.7. I've run it several times now and I end up keeping on resetting the VE table to where it was before.

I have a random stalling issue now at low engine speed, especially within a minute of running. I did notice VEAL took fuel out of my already set idle block and I put it back, so I will wait and see what happens. I did have the hot idle speed set at about 850 RPM for a while but the engine kept dying shortly after a hot start (like at the gas station the last time). So I've reset it to about 1000-1100. Still having the issue with the 500 or so RPM difference between cold start warmup idle speed and hot start idle speed.

Still not getting a definitive answer on DIYEFI of just what is going on with the sensor noise on the knock circuit. I have already tested the knock system all the way to the ECM using a code 43 chart from my FSM (the 87 one, not the 92), and everything tests OK right up to the MS. They keep trying to tell my that the problem exists OUTSIDE the MS. I read on a post in another forum (Nissan ) that there has apparently been an issue with all sorts of sensor noise on the V3 board that has been known since 2004! Except I haven't found any readily available info to fix it other than attaching a capacitor between the middle pins of Q3 and Q9...

[Guest]

That's the reason I don't use any sort of auto tune. It wants to tune to a number and sometimes that number it wants to tune to is not correct. There is always a delay between what is happening in teh cylinder and when the O2 sensor reads the exhaust and this does not usually line up in an auto tune format.

Also reading this latest post makes me glad I still have not gone to an MS...

[90BlueZ]

There is a "Lambda delay" that can be used and tuned for your specific WB and WB location. You can also lock cells you don't want VEAL to tune (if any). It really works awesome and is a huge time saver (and not only for me) but you have to know how to use it (even if it's VERY simple).

[Maverick H1L]

Well, last week I dropped the MS out of the car again and put 4 more capacitors in it... 2 on the fuel pump drivers and 2 tach filters. Been going around and around in circles since.

Been wondering why I had to keep adding fuel in every table. Dropped fuel filter out a couple of days ago and it had more crap in it than I've ever seen. Probably crap from the old fuel pump I forgot to clean out of there when I replaced it . Pump is now somewhat quieter (when cold but still screaming when hot) and I've actually got decent AFRs and numbers in the tables again.

Back to the old issue of not wanting to run the same twice in a row. I took her out for about an hour earlier, and what do you know, VEAL actually worked for once. Got home and the idle was nice and smooth (after I undid what VEAL had done to the "idle block" and locked off those cells), plenty of power, no problems starting. I shut her off, opened the hood to let the engine cool off, closed my tuning laptop (NO changes made other than setting the idle block back up), and went inside. Come back 4 hours later, starts up nice, but doesn't want to stay running without modifying tables again. Finally get her to warm up and the idle quality is terrible. No, she isn't hunting for idle, but it just doesn't feel as smooth as earlier, and has a few misses here and there. Kind of what I would almost describe as "choppy" idle but maintaining engine speed and AFRs (for the most part on the AFRs... she does hunt a little bit on the AFRs).

Still no response on MSEFI about the knock sensor circuit. About to give up. And still don't know what it is with this not wanting to run the same twice in a row thing OR the fact that I have to shut the engine off and restart it hot to get the idle down below 1500 RPM without changing any settings.

[1988GTU]

Does the MS look for live ECT temp for cold starting or does the ignition timing lock in for hot starting once up to temp. Then when you are cold starting it messes with it firing up cold since it did not config to cold ignition timing?

[Maverick H1L]

In the Cold Advance table it's showing normal timing with 2* retard at nominal operating temp (doesn't get over 200*F as I won't currently let it since I haven't fixed the lower radiator hose high temp issue yet... That will happen when I drain the coolant for the upper hose swap with the stainless one next to me). Haven't touched the IAC corrections tables period since booting the MSII for the first time in the car last year.

Right now I'm not having issues firing the engine off. It's keeping it running decent when hot. Acceleration is still good. Idle RPM is holding somewhat steady, but my AFRs are bouncing between 12.5 and 14.5 for whatever reason. Doesn't matter how many cells in the idle block I modify, nothing changes when hot. I'm hoping my injectors haven't gotten partially clogged by whatever crap made it past the magnet and element in my fuel filter. The #injections has been reset to 6 and the engine likes it that way everywhere except hot idle. I'd have to fight with the entire VE table to reset it back to 2. I've changed every single setting in the Injection Control and Injector Characteristics tabs and the engine only runs worse, so I reset them to where they were. Also reset the base fuel pressure to 43 PSI since apparently the gauge on my pressure regulator is about 20 PSI off (used external gauge). I might take it down to about 40 PSI, but I just might leave it as is too. I've also tried adjusting idle timing to no avail when hot.

I need to grab the other laptop out of the car and post up new data...

[Maverick H1L]

Well, almost getting somewhere now. I actually logged a few actual highway miles at 70 MPH over the last couple days. Running rich on the highway. VE analyzer NOT working along with the O2 correction, and I've given up on the jokers at MSEFI as they really don't seem to be interested in helping any of my issues at all. I've been having the IAC and knock sense issues since the engine first fired last year after I finally got the external crank trigger problem figured out, and I'm still getting nowhere there. I can't use the analyzer in MLV because I only want to adjust a portion of the log and if I set the "minimum time" anywhere above the 500 mark, the analyzer automatically omits ALL data points except ONE. Which doesn't help if the part I want to analyze is between the 30000 mark and 36000.

Anyways, it seems that it's not that I'm running lean when I get into the go pedal but flooding the engine. I've halved the AE tables from factory settings (MS stock settings reset) twice now. I haven't run it yet since I halved the settings the second time last night due to also needing to make serious changes in the VE table. Still don't have a driver so I can handle the tuning while driving since blasted VEAL isn't working. About to go for a quick drive so I can get a log with the settings I changed last night. Will post up current log and MSQ when done. I'm hoping someone can look it over and give me a hand as I'm kind of lost now.

[Maverick H1L]

Well, let's see if Internet Exploder will let me upload today's log package because, as usual, Firefox won't let me upload...

[90BlueZ]

A few things:

1. MLV allows to edit log file to cut/analyze only the part you need. Right click on the log -> Log editing -> Delete before or after cursor position
2. I've run VE analyzer on your log using your MSQ and it works just fine. It also seems to be doing exactly what I would do looking at your log so nothing wrong there. It's a good idea to use it to start because your current VE table is so far off that it will bring you very close much faster then you ever could.
3. Your CLT sensor is way noisy, maybe a bad ground or something ?
4. Your spark table is a mess, there is no way this is optimal, or should even be used at all. Maybe start with the stock spark table or something, it can't be worst.
5. It makes no sense that you're talking about AE while your VE table is so far from being tuned. What if one part of the VE table is too lean and one part is too rich (like it is currently your case), the AE tuning is going to be a nightmare. You need a solid base (VE table) before you can even think of tuning AE.
6. 95% of people that have an MS use msextra and you should seriously consider it too. The forum is also a lot more active and a lot more people to help. MSEFI is not that great (as you figured out).

[dskopek]

I see from the log that at light cruise your AFR is 15.5-16.5 and on most throttle tip in you are going way lean before everything evens out, seen low 17's on AFR.
Have you ever put a timing light on the engine to see if when MS says 20 deg of timing you have 20 degs? If so the table does look low on spark advance but if i remember right you are running something around 11:1 CR so maybe ok. I also am running MSExtra, have not played with the version you are using.

[Maverick H1L]

That VE table was an experiment... It's been reset since and accelerates a little better with slightly better AFRs now. And VEAL does nothing whether or not the VE is close or WAAAY off. I mean, seriously, I'll be glancing over at it while driving and I know that at a constant speed the AFR table cells are SUPPOSED to be 15.1 or thereabouts, but the VEAL isn't touching it at 13.X.
Spark advance table is based off of a stock table sent from Saar and also from a table copied out of TunerPro and the BPCL 3100 16196387 MEMCAL (A-body 94-95). I've actually taken a couple degrees out of the upper kPa line and that's pretty much it other than changing the 100 kPa/0 RPM cell to 10* from 2.1. Yes, I went through the trigger offset wizard and the timing is dead on at 62* offset. That was set after I initially got this thing running (seriously, it was on a timing light for about 2 months before I found out that the problem with the no start was the trigger wheel and not the 7X or the ignition module) and after I was forced to change the position of the 7X sensor with the 3.4 alternator bracket.

And yes, this engine is around 11.4:1 CR.

At the time that log was made, I believe I had AE turned off, which is why it was going "lean". Having AE turned on in ANY amount results in the same AFR result no matter how high or low the AE tables or the AE "final PW" is set. I've been having that issue since the beginning as well. The engine just doesn't want to rev smoothly when the throttle is goosed, it always dips a couple hundred RPM before it picks up again.

I'll be making another log tomorrow.

Note: I tried MS2Extra. IF the engine ran, it ran like absolute garbage. It mostly didn't run. And all of my settings were copied over from my existing MSQ (run on this computer while inputting on the other). Didn't matter what I did, changed, or inputted, MS2Extra was a HUGE bomb for me.

Oh, and keep in mind that the MS2 is reading the Innovate LC-2 between .2 and .4 LEAN. I have no idea why and I can't tap into the LC-2 because there is apparently a problem with the serial connection Innovate seems to be clueless about...

[robertisaar]

the A-body calibration has its spark table referenced with RPM vs LV8, with LV8 being a valueless cylinder airmass value. unless you're running a spark table based on the same principle, i would grab the spark table from one of the 94-95 3100 calibrations that run speed-density.

[Maverick H1L]

Well, I'm getting somewhat closer to having a good tune on this thing... Lots of frustration, head banging, resetting and reinstalling the code on the MS2 (don't know why but twice now the code has become corrupted and I've had to pull it and do a full restore reinstalling the firmware and tune).

I've got good AFRs at about 75% throttle. Decent AFRs at cruise.

Still having issues with the IAC.

Still having issues with acceleration from one speed at cruise to another in 4th and 5th gears (T-5). AFRs going lean, about 17 or worse. Good acceleration in the other gears. WOT I think is still a problem with going super rich.

Now for the question... It seems almost like I've got a couple bad injectors (probably clogged as they have been electrically tested okay). My AFRs are bouncing badly even at idle. I know I have #3 and #5 exhaust ports leaking, but the AFRs are bouncing somewhere between .6 and .8 lambda even at idle. I can no longer maintain a 13.5:1 AFR at idle. If I get her close, the system shoots lean and back rich and loops over and over again. It's misfiring at idle. Besides the fact that the IAC control seems to have a coding issue (MS forums no help there) and the engine is idling at 17-1800 after a cold start when warmed up (I've dealt with this before when my 2.8 intake system lacked idle control due to missing parts... idle speed increases but doesn't drop between cold and hot when IAC isn't closing), it's misfiring and sounds like a marching band drum line. Almost the same happens with a hot restart. I'm thinking new injectors?

[Guest]

Fix known problems first, then move onto unknowns.

In other words fix the exhaust leaks, THEN re-asses.