Iron-head 2.8MPFI Turbo Install / 85 Celebrity

[Purple pit]

I enjoy the how to. Makes me feel like I'm in shop class again. Man if I ever need all this info again there is going to be alot of back tracking. Don't take that the wrong way. I love how this makes you feel more like a part of this build. Much better than a post that just has "rebuilt the turbo today" or "the heads are almost done".

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

I enjoy the how to. Makes me feel like I'm in shop class again. Man if I ever need all this info again there is going to be alot of back tracking. Don't take that the wrong way. I love how this makes you feel more like a part of this build. Much better than a post that just has "rebuilt the turbo today" or "the heads are almost done".

Thanks. I appreciate it. Yes I hope it encourages others to do similar, or at least use the pictures as a reference.

This brings to mind the opposite. I've been on the Internet a long time and you see some interesting characters. There have been seen some very spotty build threads before, where I don't completely beleive the author actually did a build. Not talking about someone who started a build with good intentions, then got in over their head - but a thread only meant to trick people into thinking the poster had abilities they did not. I think of that when I consider saying "rebuilt the tubo" in 3 words. It takes about 2 hours to do this (with proper equipment - longer if you don't have cleaning equipment), and 2 hours of working takes more than 3 words to document!

Years back, I read a series of posts where a member claimed to have built a turbo system, got it working, and it was tuning it.

The extent of the build thread was a few pictures. The first was (from a distance) of an engine on a stand with a turbo crossover pipe and turbo mounted on it. No oil or coolant or air or downpipe connections.

Then there were lots of very close-up pictures of "something" that looked like an engine block with an oil return but you could not tell what sort of engine or what type of car. Looks like he found several different legitimate turbo cars parked in parking lots, laid down on the parking lot and took pictures of the bottom of the engine - with cell phone.

Finally there was a picture of the guy's car with hood up, taken from a low angle (kneeling?) where you could just see the top of a turbocharger to the right of the engine. For all I know it was just sitting there on top of hoses and wiring in the engine bay. It wasn't even straight.

It was supposedly making "300 HP on the dyno." We all know any of these engines that will make 300 wheel HP is a serious piece of machinery and takes a full build through and through, plus transmission work.

Then when people started commenting and expecting to see more of the car and how it was working, as well as the dyno printout, came the sad story of the theft and damage to the car. The car had been stolen and "blown up," and because he could not afford to replace the damaged turbo, so he did a stock rebuild. Yeah. Oh - and the dyno printout was lost by the car theives, too.

Sincerely,
David

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Ok here's the rest of the turbo repair pictures. The center housing was soaking in EvapoRust overnight. This stuff is exellent. It won't damage or affect anything other than rust. I was skeptical that it would work, seeing how "safe" it claims to be. But it is badass. If you use it as directed (there is a temperature requirement) it really works.
The product:


The result:




And there is no chance of leaving blast media in the housing.

Next the bearings and shaft go back in.


Then the inner part of the thrust bearing journal.


Then the thrust bearing plate. The outer part of the thrust bearing journal is assembled to the cover, ready to go on.


Then that assembly slides in and the snap ring goes in. It's a tapered ring to keep vibration to a minimum. Therefore it must be firmly seated by expanding it and tapping on it. As the o-ring compresses, the ring expands into the groove, locking the cover in place.


Now for the alignment of the parts, for balance reasons. Look at the turbine wheel. See the number "510" between the 2 blades. One slot to the left, there is a round dot cast into the wheel. This aligns to the drill mark on the housing flange. This was the position before teardown.


The compressor end has an "A" logo (for Airesearch). The first blade to the right (viewed normally) lines up with the scribe mark on the housing.


Then the nut goes on, and tightens to the original position, by lining up the scribe marks placed on them earlier. The mark on the compressor wheel is very small to avoid damaging the wheel. I dotted black Sharpie pen over them to help with visibility.


Finished CHRA.


Now to clean the ash and carbon out of the turbine housing. Wire brush wrapped in Scotch Brite works well.


Result:


Install the clamps with antiseize on the bolts. Line up the drill mark and tighten it.


No carbon in there.


Compressor o-ring


This snapring is a tapered ring to compress the o-ring as it wedges into the slot. It's important to expand it forcefully and tap the housings. This will make sure the o-ring is compressed and the housing is fully seated.


Completed turbo!




I forgot to take pictures, but I had to re-drill the actuator bracket mounting holes. They are threaded into the compressor housing. I rotated the housing to give the air hose a less strained alignment with the charge air pipe on the car body. After that, the actuator holes didn't line up. It took a trip to the store to get a M6x1.0 tap set and a 5mm drill bit. But it will be worth it when the car goes back together.

[Purple pit]

If I ever get a turbo can I send it to you? That thing looks brand new.
Great story by the way!

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

If I ever get a turbo can I send it to you? That thing looks brand new.
Great story by the way!

Thanks, I hope it works like brand new! Honestly it worked just fine before. Only worried about the bearings condition.

I pretty well just work on odds and ends projects. Nothing's out of the question though, as far as repairing one for you.

[pocket-rocket]

Wow, I'm impressed with the rust remover. Where do you buy it at and how much does it run?

Granted it was surface on the center section, but it still came out looking really good.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Wow, I'm impressed with the rust remover. Where do you buy it at and how much does it run?

Granted it was surface on the center section, but it still came out looking really good.

It does work well. I got the EvapoRust from Advance Auto, it's about $20 a gallon. I think that's a little high, but as a dipping chemical it lasts a very long time. See This page at Advance Auto.

You are indeed correct that it's good at removing surface rust only. It will not replace missing metal or "convert" rust into anything. It removes the rust leaving bare metal. The parts must fit in the container and be fully submerged. It's not for car bodywork.

One good use of it is dismantling rusted assemblies. Because it will never attack metals or plastics (only rust) you can soak a rusted assembly in it for weeks if needed until the rust is gone and the parts are free. All the plastic and aluminum parts will not be affected at all. I've soaked an electric motor in it for a month so that I could non-destructively disassemble the motor. It was part of an antique fan.

Sincerely,
David

[Purple pit]

I thank you on that, but a turbo is a dream at this point. One day if something fell out of the blue into my lap then.......
I like to everything I can before something is called done, so I understand on the turbo bearings. My failures are do to making things right to the highest point in one area and rushing another. All in the name of getting back lost time. Just a personal hang up I guess(lol).

[pocket-rocket]

You are indeed correct that it's good at removing surface rust only. It will not replace missing metal or "convert" rust into anything. It removes the rust leaving bare metal. The parts must fit in the container and be fully submerged. It's not for car bodywork.

I wasn't under the impression that it would convert rust, it's the shear rust removal that got my attention.

If I had a part I could let soak over night while I got other stuff done instead of blasting or using my wire wheel I would. Not only that, my big shop vac pulls too much of a vacuum in my blast cabinet and over half my glass bead has gone MIA, lol. Since I discovered that I got some old pantyhose from my wife and put multiple pairs over the vac port of my cabinet to help combat it, along with getting a much smaller vac when I saw them on sale at Lowe's for about $20-25.

The fan motor idea is a really good one. Nothing sucks more than pulling something apart and breaking half of the fasteners.

Thanks for the info :-)

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

I thank you on that, but a turbo is a dream at this point. One day if something fell out of the blue into my lap then.......
I like to everything I can before something is called done, so I understand on the turbo bearings. My failures are do to making things right to the highest point in one area and rushing another. All in the name of getting back lost time. Just a personal hang up I guess(lol).

I understand that all too well! I try to get every one of my restoration projects "drivable" as soon as possible and it ends up costing me more in the longrun sometime.

I wasn't under the impression that it would convert rust, it's the shear rust removal that got my attention.

If I had a part I could let soak over night while I got other stuff done instead of blasting or using my wire wheel I would. Not only that, my big shop vac pulls too much of a vacuum in my blast cabinet and over half my glass bead has gone MIA, lol. Since I discovered that I got some old pantyhose from my wife and put multiple pairs over the vac port of my cabinet to help combat it, along with getting a much smaller vac when I saw them on sale at Lowe's for about $20-25.

The fan motor idea is a really good one. Nothing sucks more than pulling something apart and breaking half of the fasteners.

Thanks for the info :-)

LOL at the lost blast media. I feel your pain there. Mounted a blower on my cabinet to exhaust the dust outside, but it is too strong and all the glass beads end up in the yard! When powered up, the gloves automatically stick straight out into the cabinet and the door will hardy open. It's a heck of a blower, came from an old commercial printing machine about 10 years ago. I've got to install a filter inside the cabinet, of some mesh too fine to allow beads to pass, but will allow dust to go. On the up-side it will keep my media from getting too old and dusty. Because I lose it before that can happen..... Thankfully there's a Harbor Freight store nearby so I can get more beads as needed.

If you soak a motor, just make sure to wash it in clean hot water afterwards, then follow proper electrical winding drying procedure.

Sincerely,
David

[3400-95-Modified]

HOLY CHIT that rust stuff looks awesome... I'm picking up some of that tonight!

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Alright got a small update today!

The first part is from a few days back. This is where Chris and I worked on the weatherstripping. I had pulled some stripping off junk cars, and kept it for projects like this. There are pretty well never any coupes in the junkyard with good weatherstripping. They quit making the A-body 2-door coupes so long ago. The 1995 and 1996 A-cars (all 4 door) have the best weatherstripping. So those will have to be adapted to the coupe.

The trick is to insert a section of the rear sedan door weatherstripping into the front door weatherstripping. Do the insertion at the bottom, so the seam will be out of the weather and less noticable.

As for the critical area, the top rear corner. This is where the stripping always wants to pull apart and fail. The 1995 and 1996 cars have a reinforcement piece on the back. It is glued to the weatherstripping.

This is the back of the rear corner, with the reinforcement piece.


Piece removed. The bond gets weak with time, and I find it best to pull this off and re-glue it with superglue.


The reinforced stripping installed, with Gorilla Tape covering the glue joint on the front. This will keep the glued seam protected.


A small square of this tape, carefully trimmed with a razor blade, makes an inconspicuous corner reinforcement.


The secondary seal installed on the top of the door, using 3M Super Weatherstripping Adhesive, Black. This helps keep noise and water out.



Now for the engine!

Got the block back from the machine shop. It's pretty clean, but the inside of the oil gallerys is a little rusty. I used nylon bristle brushes and the pressure washer to clean them out. before assembly. Don't want any debris to damage the new bearings. No dirt in there! The design of the oil system scares me. There are blind areas behind the cam bearings that could trap debris. I used a straight-jet pressure washer tip at maximum power 3500 PSI. It is scary and vicious at that level. But I am sure there is NOTHING left in the galleries. If it is there, and the pressure washer couldn't remove it - then engine oil pressure won't remove it either. So it will never dislodge and damage the engine.


I had them install wider cam bearings specified for a SBC engine (thanks to you guys' sugestion!) This will give the camshaft support across the entire journal area. Should help with long life of the engine. This is hard to understand what you are seeing, but it's the cam journal, with the bearing fully supporting it and some bearing extending beyond the journal. Both sides of the journal fully supported.


Main bearing upper inserts in place.


Crank in place. Sealant and assembly lube on the cap and bearing.


Mains in and torqued. New timin set re-installed. I had run the engine about 200 miles before the mains failed. The timing set is still like new.


Timing cover on and torqued.


The original 3.1 pistons. They are all scuffed to some degree or another.


This is caused by metal-to-metal contact with the cylinder bore. Overheating is a prime cause, as is diluted or contaminated oil. Notice the up-and-down scratches in the blackened area? Other than those accidental scratches, the piston is worn smooth. Not knowing the history of the donor car, there is no telling how this happened.


This one is not bad. Notice the knurling marks are still there. The new pistons are "coated" on the skirt area. Instead of knurling, they have an antifriction coating applied to the skirts. This will completely prevent scuffing.


This is just a parts book illustration but you can see the piston skirt is grey color? That is the coating. It will not come off. I've seen completely destroyed pistons where this coating was still there, on the broken pieces!


Tomorrow the new pistons are supposed to arrive. Maybe can get them installed on the rods tomorrow.

[3400-95-Modified]

Um I beg to differ with that last statement... I have those pistons in my old 2001 3400 that I built for my beretta... I removed the pistons to do head gaskets and general run through after it ran for a while and the coating was starting to rub off where the scuffing happens...

You can barely see it in this photo but the coating was coming off where they hit.



No arguing that the coating doesn't help though... I'm sure it helps a bit but it's not a permanent solution.

[Purple pit]

So a line hone and line bore would cost too much?
Is the scuff do to the fact that it is a 60 degree engine?

Got one for you David. A guy up the street has a vert A body 2 door. I told him I didn't know any were made. I'll have to ask him what it is and see if I can get some pics. It's in great shape and if I remember right it has less than 100k.

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Um I beg to differ with that last statement... I have those pistons in my old 2001 3400 that I built for my beretta... I removed the pistons to do head gaskets and general run through after it ran for a while and the coating was starting to rub off where the scuffing happens...

You can barely see it in this photo but the coating was coming off where they hit.

No arguing that the coating doesn't help though... I'm sure it helps a bit but it's not a permanent solution.

Well, I hope it stays on this one for a while. Even if it wears off after while, that gives some time before the piston skirt actually touches the bore. So it has to help some.

Did you notice any difference in the sound of the engine? My Buick 3.8 with coated forged pistons is noticably quieter than a friend's Buick with uncoated forged pistons.

The ones in this build are cast HE pistons, so the sound difference may not be much.

So a line hone and line bore would cost too much?
Is the scuff do to the fact that it is a 60 degree engine?

Machinist checked the main bearing alignment, and it was in spec so no need to align hone the mains of the 3.1 block. The bores also were within specification for Standard. It just needed a little honing to give it crosshatch.

The main reason for the new pistons is to get the correct compression ratio for the iron-head engine; but I would have not been comfortable with the scuffed pistons. I really think probably the engine was overheated or run WAY past oil change interval causing the scuffing. Several folks here have said the older engines (Gen II) were not bad to scuff or slap. It was mainly the 3x00. Once again, I am not a specialist on the 60 degree engines; however I have a lot of experneice with many different types of engines.

Got one for you David. A guy up the street has a vert A body 2 door. I told him I didn't know any were made. I'll have to ask him what it is and see if I can get some pics. It's in great shape and if I remember right it has less than 100k.

That would be very cool to see! I wonder if he's on a-body.net? I have a very sad project car Olds Ciera 'Vert. Needs everything from engine build to complete restoration. I bought it in South Florida and dollied it home behind my 4 door Century. It has a fully built 4T65EHD transmission so I was able to pull the second car without overstressing the transmission. Just took it slow because of the braking and weight concerns.

On the road, overnight stop at Quality Inn in Ozark, Alabama.


After washing.


Today I got half the pistons installed. Had to stop after three because only had 3 rod bearings. I guess the guy thought the engine needed a "set of bearings" for each bank, and I only asked for one set. So much incompetence at the parts stores these days... :rant:

Machine shop installed pistons on rods today. It was quick and easy because they had a special heating stove to put the rods in.


Going in with #1. Got rubber caps on the rod bolts to protect the crank journal.


No gouges in the journal with the caps.


Assembly lubed #2 cap going on.


First 3 in. All rods have side clearence and the engine turns by hand easily. Looking good, but frustrated I don't have the bearings.



Later,
David