3.1L/3400 hybrid swap.

[fasteddi]

I dont have a oscilloscope. I wish i did though. I know it would really come in handy for things such as this.

[fasteddi]

Hope to hit a yard on sunday morning but while i was out in the garage yesterday i went to recheck some test points.

Is it normal for the 3 prong CPS connection to be 12Vdc+??? Seemed weird but its + on both terminals on the ICM. I checked it 10 times over. Also when I hook up the ecm harness to the icm if the car ignition is already on, i can then hear the pump prime as soon as i plug it in.

Also on the 6 pin connector, all the pins show 12vdc+ except the blank on in the middle, this really concerns me.

[Maverick H1L]

I know it's a pain to do, but unplug your ECM and check the wiring between the ICM and ECM. Also check for +12V on the 4 wires at the ECM. AFAIK, without looking in the service manual, there shouldn't be 12V in any of the wires. Except the TACH wire when the ignition is on and it's plugged into the ICM (transporting output to ground). Should be 5V in at least 2 of them (the BYPASS wire I know for sure unless the ignition is in CRANK).

2 of the ICM CKP pins should be GROUND. One for the sensor (purple wire) and the other for the shielding wire that was in the CKP harness in select vehicles (supposed to help prevent EMI).

[fasteddi]

Took it to AZ they tested it 2 times failed everything with flying colors.... red!

Hopefully this did not ruin my sensor or ecm, although the ecm still works fine from what i c

[caffeine]

Sounds like you found the problem!

[Guest]

Update?

[fasteddi]

Went and got a ICM from a jy the other day. Came home hooked only the 12vdc+ and the ground up. Coils were not on the ICM and the terminals checked out fine. So I toss on the coils, cps wire and ECM clip on and try to make it spark by cranking the car. No spark. No reference to ECM. I even got a new one at advanced for 80 bucks and same effect.. I was impatient see if it was a bad icm even though advanced said the other one was fine.


So I think it just may be the sensor position but it's not. I take off the 2/5 pack and I get voltage but not the voltage I'm suppose to get on the terminals. More like 9 volts but the bat is flowing 13.7vdc. If I power it off the resistance for the positive terminal under the coil packs to ground is OL if I ohm the ground terminal under the coil packs to the ground it's 30ohms. The ground at the 2 wire plug is less then .5 ohms to the same grounding point.

Now the ICM plugs are all ok. Not spitting out voltage anywhere it's not suppose to be.

I feel as if I'm a idiot here as now I need to test another coil.

Right now I believe I need to just tear the wiring back and start over.

[Guest]

You should definitely have battery voltage or within a couple tenths of a volt of battery voltage at the terminals to the coils with the key on.

Check your voltage going into the ICM. You may have a high resistance connection between the ignition source and the ICM. If this was an older car I'd suspect it had resistance wire, but a 3rd gen F-body should not have that, since they all used electronic ignition.

9 Volts is really too low and would not be surprised that there was no spark or DRP being produced.

If need be a relay can be added to the circuit to feed power directly from the battery, but allow the ignition to control it.

[fasteddi]

I tried a few of the tips but the voltage is just wacky on the coil terminals.

Still though the + coil terminals to ground is megged for ohms and the - coil terminals to ground is less then .5ohms when the key is off.


Ok I think the icm is bad again. Thankfully it is exchangable at least at the J yard, so that will be another step. But i have got to be messing up something.

Added some pics of the wiring.

The 4 wires, est, bypass, ref... are all in that one pic where 4 of them come out of the main wire loom about at the middle of the firewall(the colors all match the orignal). Then there is the 2 wire Red and white coming out of the pass side of the fire wall main loom. B is my positive. I used the red only and even went as far as grounding the ground directly to the battery.

I have 12 vdc or so at the connector at the icm but still issues getting the proper voltage out of the coil terminals.

This will sound stupid but if I go across the coil and the key is on i am getting 0 vts but if i go to the + termial and then a body ground is 12 for the one side and then if I got from - to the bat I get 6vts. This is when the icm is not grounded at the 2 prong clip but fastened tight to the mounting plate which is grounded. This only happend because I accidently janked the wire off of my grounding spot and noticed my meter change numbers.


Now this blows my mind. When properly grounded and hooked up at the icm, the + coil terminal to ground, drops to 0vts. The coil ground terminal to the ground is 0vts. Going across the terminals on for the coil when the icm is grounded is also 0.


Strange stuff. But I posted some pics so if anything looks wrong i really appreciate it.

I can tear back into the loom but the 4 wires come out as one group and the 2 wires come out as a group out of a different section of the loom.

Also if you look at the angle on the wheel it looks like its not seeing the notche bottoms completly. Not that, that would cause what is going on right now its something that i will have to adjust.

[Guest]

I didn't realize that you were using the front edge of the pulley to try to use as a trigger wheel. That will not work. There isn't enough material there to cause the sensor to switch states. The trigger wheel needs to be at least 1/4" thick. This would also explain the low voltage on the trigger signal, though I haven't actually measured mine to compare.

You shouldn't be getting any voltage across the coil terminals, with the engine not turning over. Inside the ICM there are 3 transistors that drive the coils, and these will all be off without a trigger signal to the ICM. The 12V at the positive terminal is a good sign. The 6V is expected when the ICM is not grounded, I won't go into the details of why, but it makes sense from an electronics standpoint. Make sure that ground is solid!

So you need a better trigger wheel for this to work, before you do anything else, rectify that. I'd also replace that pulley now. There's a reason why there is a raised lip on the outside edges of the pulleys, and that would be to keep the belts on. Even with "perfect" alignment the belt will want to wonder and the notches that are there now will chew up the belt.

I'd also make the trigger wheel a larger diameter than the pulley if you attach it to the front edge, so that the edge of the pulley doesn't interfere with the notches. I know that sounds like I'm contradicting myself here, but when you have bits of metal next to each other trying to manipulate a magnetic field there can be strange things happen to the magnetic flux that is part of this whole process working.

[Maverick H1L]

I didn't realize that you were using the front edge of the pulley to try to use as a trigger wheel. That will not work. There isn't enough material there to cause the sensor to switch states. The trigger wheel needs to be at least 1/4" thick. This would also explain the low voltage on the trigger signal, though I haven't actually measured mine to compare.

You shouldn't be getting any voltage across the coil terminals, with the engine not turning over. Inside the ICM there are 3 transistors that drive the coils, and these will all be off without a trigger signal to the ICM. The 12V at the positive terminal is a good sign. The 6V is expected when the ICM is not grounded, I won't go into the details of why, but it makes sense from an electronics standpoint. Make sure that ground is solid!

So you need a better trigger wheel for this to work, before you do anything else, rectify that. I'd also replace that pulley now. There's a reason why there is a raised lip on the outside edges of the pulleys, and that would be to keep the belts on. Even with "perfect" alignment the belt will want to wonder and the notches that are there now will chew up the belt.

I'd also make the trigger wheel a larger diameter than the pulley if you attach it to the front edge, so that the edge of the pulley doesn't interfere with the notches. I know that sounds like I'm contradicting myself here, but when you have bits of metal next to each other trying to manipulate a magnetic field there can be strange things happen to the magnetic flux that is part of this whole process working.

cough "outer edge of damper" cough...

[Guest]

cough "outer edge of damper" cough...

Look at the damn picture, it's the outer edge of the pulley he's trying to use, so go cough yourself...



And if you're suggesting to use the outer ring of the harmonic balancer, this is a bad idea for several reasons, most notably of which, the timing will not be stable, due to how the harmonic balancer works.

[Canyonero]

I saw that earlier and wondered of that would even work, but I'm no authority and no one else said anything. Guess I should have spoke up.

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[Maverick H1L]

Look at the damn picture, it's the outer edge of the pulley he's trying to use, so go cough yourself...



And if you're suggesting to use the outer ring of the harmonic balancer, this is a bad idea for several reasons, most notably of which, the timing will not be stable, due to how the harmonic balancer works.

I'm fully aware he's trying to use the outer edge of the PULLEY as the timing ring. I saw the earlier pics. Which is why I'm suggesting to use the outer edge of the DAMPER as the ring.

What's funny is TCE sells their external CKP kits WITH THE NOTCHES MACHINED IN THE OUTER RING OF THE DAMPER. And what's also funny is I bought one and have NO timing issues. Well, once I fixed their mistake (they mounted the damper to the fixture upside down and completely screwed it up).

AND IT'S A DAMPER AND NOT A BALANCER. THE DAMPER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ENGINE BALANCE. IF THE ENGINE IS EXTERNALLY BALANCED, THE WEIGHT IS GENERALLY ON THE FLYWHEEL/FLEXPLATE. THE CORRECT TERM FOR THE THING IS "TORSIONAL DAMPER".

[Canyonero]

These notches are on the pulley not the damper.

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