The 60 degree family tree

[SappySE107]

memcal = removable chip. The 94+ beretta does not have a removable chip. I dont think any SFI pushrods have a memcal.

[v6h.o.]

well it looks like the A body does. as i looked it up and it lists the separate eprom chip for it. i can double check that tomorrow.

[geoffinbc]

Ok looking for power output numbers...
What did the Carbureted FWD motors make?
What did the Iron Head MPFI engines make?
I know the Fiero's made 135

Tere are a ton of mistakes on this page http://www.60degreev6.com/index.php?p=pages&pid=55
Says the fiero was 8.5:1 compresion when it was 8.9:1
Also says that RWD 2.8L motors have Aluminum heads.
3400 is only 9.5:1 not 9.6:1

[bszopi]

16184164

ECM part number for a 93 3.1L SFI VIN "T". If you can find any info on that number, that could give you an idea if there was a PROM'd 3100 out there...

[SappySE107]

fixed.

[v6h.o.]

3400's have 9.6:1 according to GM service manuals.
if your stating they have 9.5:1 due to the gm powertrain info webpage... the powertrain site is wrong, ive found a few goof ups on there before

[v6h.o.]

ok, this may get confusing to read but here goes. Brad reminded me of the conversation we had about 2 years ago on V6Jbody yahoo groups about a oddball ecm.. it all started with Rob B's question at hand... i copied and pasted most relevant replies to this about an oddball ecm that might have had SFI but Could be a Memcal style:

again this is just copied and pasted replies, dont reply to the 5spd question:

-Anyone know if a 5 spd will work in a 1995 Grand Am GT with a 3100?
The car is automatic now, so will the computer have to be changed also??
Last question, does anyone have a good 5 speed tranny (preferably will all
linkages and pedals) for sale?
Thanks
Rob B


-IIRC, the 3100 is an OBD-II engine. Which means that if it has an
electronically controlled trans then you will need an aftermarket ECM. I
had this discussion with a drivability master mechanic regarding the
3800 swap I was pondering a few years ago. He said that if you unhook
the tranny, and the OBD doesn't see it , it could possibly render the
car undriveable and even the possibility that it wouldn't even start. So
I up and changed plans and am now waiting to install my Haltech ECU for
a built 3.1 or 3100 whichever I decide on. Hope this doesn't discourage
you.
David.

-In a message dated 1/22/02 7:55:33 AM, jay@v... writes:

>The electronics would be a bit of a pain. I'd wire the PCM so it
>thought the transmission was in Neutral. This keeps the PCM from
>expecting the transmission to shift. You'll have to fake the
>transmission electronics so the PCM thinks that it is still
>attached. I doubt this would be all that difficult -- studying a
>Helm manual on the GAGT would tell you what the PCM expects to see
>from the transmission in Neutral.

all 3100 equipped cars, AFAIK have a lower speed rev limiter in park and
neutral....

Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740 <-still in the shop
02 Century <-3100, has rev limiter in park and neutral

-I'm pretty sure its at 4000rpm...I would use a 3.1 MPFI ECU from a
5spd car. Even though you lose the squential fuel injection part of
it at least you won't have to deal with that OBD-II crap


(now this is where it gets interesting)

-there is supposedly a rare SFI computer for 1993 or 1994? lumnas with the 3.1 in california....
Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740 <-it's butt is successfully unplugged


Jeremy Gonyou wrote:
> Well, I'm not sure how rare it is. Isn't that the set
> up in every 3100?
> The ECM found in the J-Cars (or any other 3.1) is not
> capable of running SEFI. You're short 4 injector
> drivers.

The car in question, in this case, wasn't a 3100, but rather the 3.1
version like we have. Just coverted to SFI. Must've used an other ECM,
'cause like you said, there's not enough drivers.

--Barry
AIM: thez24man
z24man@b...
88 2.8 5spd Z24 15.8@85
94 Q4 5spd Z26 15.9@88
88 2.8 5spd GTU


-Well, this does sound interesting. I wonder if the
ECM got pulled ahead for the 93 cars or maybe they
used an old GN computer.
Does anyone have any more information on this beast?
Jeremy

-This is nuts. Ludis shows a Vin T with the L82 option
code. The L82 option is the Vin M engine. This must
have been an interum step before they went to the
16196387 the next year.
Does anybody on the list have a 93 with CA emissions?
If so I have some questions for you.

Jeremy

-i checked both these numbers here at work (gm) in the parts
department the pn. 16184164 comes up as 3.1L vin "w" L64 4spd auto
trans 93-93 C (meaning only for 93 and chevrolet div) because i dont
have a vin to go by i cant tell if its a calif. or fed. emissions. the
other number 16196387 comes up as 3.1 vin M L82 buick or olds
???? hmmmmmmmm
Colin.

-Weird... tht 16184164 must be a typo where its listed. More wierd is
the P/N you pulled up listing a 3.1 as a VIN W... that's not right,
either. The MPI 3.1s are Ts. The W is the 2.8.

Sometings scwewy heya....

--Barry
AIM: thez24man
z24man@b...
88 2.8 5spd Z24 15.8@85
94 Q4 5spd Z26 15.9@88
88 2.8 5spd GTU


-Yeah, our sources aren't jiving. Anyway, check the
RPO that Colin listed and what do you see...
ENGINE FLEXIBLE FUEL, (GAS/ALC), 3.1L, MFI, V6
First Year: 93
Last Year: 93
So now we're back to a 3.1 withOUT SEFI ... and it
runs on alcohol. Whoa. Furthermore, I found the
following on the web:

http://www.tgifdirectory.com/clean/cleanair/ethanol.html

* * * * * * *
The first modern, mass-produced ethanol vehicle was
made by the Chevrolet Division of General Motors. A
total of 50 ethanol-optimized 1992 model year
Chevrolet Lumina Variable Fuel Vehicles (VFVs) were
demonstrated in Iowa, Indiana and other states.
Chevrolet then produced 320 E85 Lumina VFVs in the
1993 model year.
* * * * * * *

At this point I would assume two things. GM's part
listing for the 16184164 should show a W _CAR_ not a W
engine. I would also assumed that Ludis should have
listed the same ECM a MFI. But then again, Ludis has
never been wrong.
Somebody, please add closure to this before my head
explodes.
Jeremy

-hey jeremey funny thing about that flexable fuel thing..... when i
typed in the part number on our gm parts computer it brings up a list
of rpo options and only those applicable to that vin get highlighted.
well anyways when i punched in the one number it came up with
california emiss. federal emisions, methonal or was it ethanol? fuel
provisions (or something like that) and i cant remember if there was
anything else. but that struck me as odd about the methonal type fuel
thing. but when i typed in that message i just left it out because i
didnt think it was relevant. partly because i didnt have a vin to go
by so nothing was highlighted - hence it might not have applyed.
hmmmmm and double hmmmmm....... what i want to know is why it only
listed the pcm for chev and for 93 only, kinda seems strange should
apply to more years divisions? shouldnt it?
Colin.


-Interesting, Colin. Looks like this thing was a
do-it-all ECM for exactly one year. Now if I could
just find one to prod.

Jeremy

-I echo your "hmmmm".
But at the same it's all starting to make sense. I
think it all hinges on a government conspiracy,
special interests, and the middle east...read on

The GM computer should've said Ethanol. Any
Frat-meister will tell you that Ethanol is an Alcohol
refined from corn, right? Where do you find corn?
Middle America...Iowa. The same place as these 320
Luminas.

50 prototypes were tested in 1992. And the Gulf war
was -what- 1991? I think this was a reaction to the
war and was the beginning to the current mantra to
"reduce dependency on foreign oil". As an added
bonus, the locals feel good about supporting their
local (corn) economy.

To answer your question, the computer listed 1993
chevy only, because this technology was only applied
to 320 1993 Chevy luminas. A related question is why
did they quit by 1994? Perhaps because the world had
forgotten about "insane Hussein" and never even heard
of freakshows named "Osama". By the mid nineties we
are happily driving 12 MPG SUVs and don't give a damn
about foreign oil. Only a few years later, we are in
the same boat and the parallel is hybrids and fuel
cells.

Anyway, this car runs on E85, gasoline, OR ANY MIX OF
THE TWO! Now that's some scary shit. I'm talking like
alien technology I don't know what it takes to do
this but evidently......it requires a new computer.
Now if someone could figure out if the 3.1 SEFI
actually existed...

E85 Trivia:
Q: Why does ethanol always contain atleast 15%
Gasoline?
A: So people won't drink it - plus it helps cold
starts.

Jeremy
"1 for the Chevy, 2 for me. 1 for the Chevy..."





im sure ben might find this interesting... so i thought i'd post this all.. sorry for the lenth and the stupidness of it all.

[Cliff8928]

16184164

ECM part number for a 93 3.1L SFI VIN "T". If you can find any info on that number, that could give you an idea if there was a PROM'd 3100 out there...

Hmm... You can buy it from GMPartsdirect for $112


Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740

[bszopi]

Yep..

[geoffinbc]

fixed.

Sweet.

Wether the 3400 is 9.5 or 9.6 to 1 I cannot say for sure. I will go check out GM's SI site and see. Right now I was just going by the website. And yes I have noticed mistakes before.

[geoffinbc]

Ok latest version is up. See what you all think. All the compression ratios and hp numbers are up

[Anonymous]

I LIKE!

[SappySE107]

The exhaust manifolds changed in 96 for the 3.4 DOHC as well.

[geoffinbc]

Ok got that... Hey does anyone think I should add all the models the engines apeared in? I got the info to do it.

[SappySE107]

id do that seperate, cause what you have is awesome. im about to steal it for the site:P