Crank scraper & windage tray

[GPChief]

Sort of a silly question but I thought I'd ask those that have done it.

Is running a crank scraper & windage tray over kill? If so which is the better of the two mods? I received a free 3100 from a 2000 GP and am taking parts off of it to do a 3X00 conversin on a 1989 TGP.

Thanks for the input.

[Guest]

I haven't seen any numbers to indicate that a scraper will or will not improve power output on a 660. There is the crankscrapers.com scraper, but it sits too low in the pan IMO, to be fully effective. The crank scaper there isn't much, due to the weights and where the rotating mass passes.
If I do decide to use one, I'll make my own.
I believe the 60degree store (on this site) also sells those crank scrapers

Windage trays are known for a couple HP, due to the cyclonic forces in the crankcase, and the design of even the OEM windage tray there is a sort of scraper effect or rather a catchter effect of oil spraying off the crank and then seperated, by the "vents" in the tray.

I'll be adding one of these to my Franken60 when I have it out.

[geoffinbc]

Power is not the biggest concern when installing these items. Oil control is. In order to make reliable power you should install them.

The scraper removes excess oil from the crank and drops it into the pan. The windage tray will keep oil down in the pan and also prevents turbulant air from the crank from stiring it up. Air in the oil is a very bad thing so do all you can to prevent it.

[Kevin_Johnson]

Sort of a silly question but I thought I'd ask those that have done it.

Is running a crank scraper & windage tray over kill?

No. Actually it is ideal. A windage tray and crank scraper are technically distinct but some trays like the one on the 3400 do have scraper louvers. A dedicated scraper will (should) come closer to the rotating assembly.

Here is a pic of a modern DaimlerChrysler windage tray with scraper louvers that even have rod bolt cutouts:

[Kevin_Johnson]

Power is not the biggest concern when installing these items. Oil control is. In order to make reliable power you should install them.

The scraper removes excess oil from the crank and drops it into the pan. The windage tray will keep oil down in the pan and also prevents turbulant air from the crank from stiring it up. Air in the oil is a very bad thing so do all you can to prevent it.

Exactly. We developed a system for the Porsche 928 V8 that solves an air entrainment issue that has dogged that engine for over 30 years. At 6300 rpms-plus the percentage of air in the oil during sweeper turns exceeds 30% which kills the 2/6 rod bearings. Rebuilds (stock) cost about $8000 to $10000 so that is definitely a problem.

[Kevin_Johnson]

I haven't seen any numbers to indicate that a scraper will or will not improve power output on a 660. There is the crankscrapers.com scraper, but it sits too low in the pan IMO, to be fully effective. The crank scaper there isn't much, due to the weights and where the rotating mass passes.

I can kill a few birds with a single quote so-to-speak. Here are a few lines from a GM patent that: 1) indicates the scraper will help; 2) also indicates that the location of the crankscrapers.com scraper is exactly where GM would propose putting it (surprise).

During operation of the engine, some oil that would otherwise drain into the oil pan may instead become entrained in crankshaft windage, which is air that rotates with the crankshaft. To address this situation, the engine may be provided with one or more oil scrapers that are attached to the main bearing caps with fasteners.

... In one embodiment of the invention, the baffle is adapted to scrape oil from crankshaft windage associated with the crankshaft.

Here is the patent data:

United States Patent 6,530,354
Bishop , et al. March 11, 2003

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Oil pan with vertical baffles


Abstract
An oil pan for use with an engine having a crankshaft includes a pan body adapted to be disposed beneath the crankshaft for receiving oil that is exhausted from the engine. The oil pan further includes a vertically extending baffle attached to the pan body.


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Inventors: Bishop; Thomas M. (Richmond, MI); Holzerland; John A. (Royal Oak, MI); Nunes; Stanley P. (St Clair Shores, MI)
Assignee: General Motors Corporation (Detroit, MI)

Appl. No.: 078202
Filed: February 19, 2002

But, just in case this is not enough empirical data in support of the designs I make here are two examples of extremely well known engines separated by about 30-40 years in development history that use a scraper in an even lower position in the pan and are still effective: 1) the Ford 390; 2) the Porsche 968.

If I do decide to use one, I'll make my own.
I believe the 60degree store (on this site) also sells those crank scrapers

Having designed a few hundred scrapers I can assure you that a higher design like along the pan rail is far simpler to do. If you want one like that no problem. I am certainly not saying you could not make one yourself either. Professional engine builders do it all the time.

Why I am jumping on you a bit is because the opinions you have about scraper location are not correct and are not even supported by the company that designed the engine in the first place. People read what you wrote and forget that it was just an opinion and it morphs into a fact in their minds. I run into it all the time and it is frustrating.

Kind regards,

Kevin

[Superdave]

here is my modified gen2 scraper on my gen3 V6 with the windage tray.