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  • 3500 plenum swap check list.

    Seriously thinking about doing the 3500 manifold swap to my 94 3100, as I'd like the extra gained low end vs just a 3400 manifold swap. Below I'm listing various items that need to be addressed. If I missed any please post and I will add them. I don't know the answers for sure on some of them, so I will update the sections as I go. Hopefully this will turn into good reference others can turn to later. This is pertaining to a gen3 small port swapping to large port lower (3400) manifold with a 3500 upper. But most of this will apply to other 3500 swaps. Ok so here we go....

    Items in Italics need additional info, help please!!

    Vacuum Sources: You'll need a 1/4" NPT tap to tap the vacuum port by the EGR mount. It had some evap soleniod or something there. Put a 1/4"MPT-1/4" barb fitting in there with teflon tape on the threads. Then T or Y it off to the FPR, and the metal pipe that goes to the transmision modulator. Use 1/4" hose to the trans modulator, and to the FPR, 1/8" should be fine since it's a small tube anyways. You could opptionally JB weld in a metal tube instead of tap, and put hoses on that if you wanted to do that... Or if the vacuum nippe by where the brake booster nipple is came tapped and fitted on your 3500 plenum, you can use this for one of the vacuum sources. Mine came tapped, but I'm using it for my cruise control.

    EGR: Is a side mount. Adapter from http://www.feavs.com/ or the "$5" adapter which uses the EGR "plate" from a 3.1mpfi motor that goes between the EGR and intake manifold.

    TB: Adapter needed & a TB. The 660 store has an adapter to use their 65mm TB or a stock one.

    Coil Pack Mount: Mounts in same place, but without 2 bolts on the top.

    MAP Sensor: Re-use old; you'll have to add a tube or tap the hole in the manifold and connect it to your old MAP. You could also use the new MAP if your plenum came with one, but you'll need the proper connector which can be found on 98+ caviliers.

    Bolts: You can re-use your lower bolts for the new large port LIM. For the 3500 plenum, NAPA has a bolt rack, take one of your old plenum bolts to the rack to match up the threads, and then get ones that are 2.565" (65mm) long, M8 1.25 thread pitch.

    FPR Clearance: Grind the neck of the plenum down so FPR has room.

    Port Match: It's a good idea to port match the manifolds so there is no restriction in flow between them.

    Gaskets: What the lower part is, use the gasket for that. Example, if you have 94 3100 heads, use a LIM gasket for those heads, not the gasket for the 3400 heads/LIM. If you are putting 3400 heads on a 3100 block, use 3100 head gasket. And of course the UIM gasket you'd use a large port 3400 upper gasket. If you are using the 60v6 store TB adapter, then if you use a stock TB, you need to remove the o-ring for the side that mounts the TB, and get a gasket for the year/kind of TB you have. If going with the CNC 65mm, no gasket is nessasary.

    Large port lower manifold required, possible issues:

    Updated gen3 Heads: If you want to get rid of your original 3100 heads, and go for the 3400 better flowing heads (have roller rockers {not roller tip though} larger intake valves and other stuff), then you'll need to get a newer 3 wire ECT/CTS. The newer heads do not have a place for the sending unit that shows the temp on your dash. Putting a 3 wire one in the thermostat housing allows both to work from one sender. You'll need to re-wire your 2 connectors to plug into it. Check out 3400swap.com guide for more specific info. If you are doing the head swap, then you do not have to worry about rocker clearance below:

    Lower Manifold Rocker Clearance: If you have the gen3 early stamped rockers (that are not roller fulcrum), getting a 2000+ lower will help with clearance issues. You will likely have to grind more to make room for the rockers, but the 2000+ is already ground some to get you started. Putting a breaker bar on the crankshaft pulley and slowly turning the engine by hand and watching the rockers or using a feeler gauge is essiential to make sure you don't hit and collapse a lifter and put aluminum shavings in your motor when done!

    Lower Manifold Coolant pipe: You'll have to get a new coolant pipe for the lower manifold, this is the pipe that has the screw on metal peice that the black metal pipe clips into. The one that you always have to get a new screw in peice when you take it off. This way if you take it off again you just pull the pipe out of the manifold. If you want to keep the threaded dohookey setup, then make sure your lower manifold is from a 1996-1998 3400 van motor, as it will be the old style. Or tap the new manifold... I figure cost of the new snap in style metal pipe that doesn't use the screw peice is about the same, and will likely not need to be replaced every time you take it off like the screw on peice does (the insides crack apart).

    Stock PCM: With this setup, the ECM should be able to cope. A 56mm TB should be fine, larger might work ok, 65mm is max you could get away with unless you have access to tune the ECM. Since 94/95 cars don't have access to tuners, this has to be considered.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hopefully this covers/will cover it all. Please help with the stuff in Italics. I want a boost on my old motor, and would like to go the 3500 upper route over the 3400 to get some extra low end to help out with the terrible gearing in my granny tranny, and from what I hear, it helps even more on high end than the 3400 too.
    Last edited by IsaacHayes; 07-11-2006, 07:02 PM.
    sigpic New 2010 project (click image)
    1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles
    16.0 1/4 mile when stock. Now ???
    Original L82 Longblock
    with LA1, LX9, LX5 parts
    Manifold-back 2.5" SS Mandrel Exhaust. Hardware is SS too.


  • #2
    I sell an adapter on the store that will use your stock TB or one of our billet TBs. You will have to modify the plenum to clear the FPR and you should port match the plenum to get more flow. The 70mm TBs are too big (drivability issues). Coil packs are fine with 2 bolts. I need to get measurements and have some adapters made but I wouldn't worry about not having it mounted up top. MAP, reuse the stocker probably. New manifold doens't come with MAP or hold down plate. Tap the IAC hole on the plenum for a 1/4" nipple to use for a vacuum line. T everything together.

    Bolts must be longer than gen 3 stock. You can get them at napa if you want red. I need to order a bunch to go with my 3500 plenums on the store. I gotta get a tap and price those vacuum nipples for that matter.

    Stock ECM, use 56mm TB and 3500 plenum. That should work well enough. Larger TB may be ok but id recommend that ability to tune just in case. The 65mm doesn't affect drivability on stock tune for OBD2 but I couldn't tell you on a non MAF setup.
    Ben
    60DegreeV6.com
    WOT-Tech.com

    Comment


    • #3
      sappy-san ah, thanks for the replies! There is a page 2 in the store. Now I see it! Neato. Yup grind the TB neck down so the FPR clears, already got that up there. Port match is a good idea, I'll throw it up on the list, I planned to do that anyways (gasket match both upper & lower where they meet each other). Map, re-use easy enough, but I thought people who ordered theirs from GMPD it came with one installed, maybe it was just ones from car-parts.com? I'll update the list. What is the IAC hole on the 3500? is it the #5 here on this picture? What are you suggesting to hook up to the vacuum spot there that you will "nipple"?

      Sappy, If I may direct a few more questions your way: What do you think of the non-roller rockers with a 2000+ LIM? Do you think I'll have clearance problems? And what do I ask for at NAPA? 3500 manifold bolts? Is that for the upper only and I can re-use my 1994-3100 LIM bolts? Or do I need replacements for those too? Red is fine, I can paint them.

      Thanks for the input on the ECM. I'm not doing an all out build or I'd have a stand alone computer (my only other option) so I was thinking by sticking to a 56mm TB I'd be good. Just doing a little bolt on to my daily driver for just a little extra pep. I figured why not?

      I believe I was registered here once before, back in the day. I've had to re-register here and beretta.net due to lack of activity. Good to see some familiar faces and some new ones! -Isaac
      sigpic New 2010 project (click image)
      1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles
      16.0 1/4 mile when stock. Now ???
      Original L82 Longblock
      with LA1, LX9, LX5 parts
      Manifold-back 2.5" SS Mandrel Exhaust. Hardware is SS too.

      Comment


      • #4
        Anyone care to take a guess at the increase I'll see? (hp peak or otherwise)

        Specs: 94 3100, CAI or Modded air box, stock beretta exhaust with no resonator, and ultraflo SS muffler. I felt big gains everywhere removing the resonator. (stock has 52mm TB).

        Adding: 3400 LIM, 3500 UIM (port matched), & 56mm TB.
        sigpic New 2010 project (click image)
        1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles
        16.0 1/4 mile when stock. Now ???
        Original L82 Longblock
        with LA1, LX9, LX5 parts
        Manifold-back 2.5" SS Mandrel Exhaust. Hardware is SS too.

        Comment


        • #5
          You can reuse the lower intake bolts, but not the plenum. They are 2.565" long (stock and the NAPA ones). Just take your stock plenum bolt to their nut and bolt rack and find one with your thread pitch and that length. I wanna say M10x1.25 but I could be wrong. I gotta go back to napa and figure it out (or you can tell me if you get them). I wanna order some nice stainless steel bolts to put on the store for them. Im sure GM wants 8 bucks a bolt like everything else they sell.

          IAC is number 5. 1/4" pipe thread fits with some nylon tape (its a bit loose otherwise). The car-part plenums come with the MAP sensor usually but not always. Ive got 4 sitting next to me:P FOr the vacuum port, you will need the trans vacuum line, the FPR, and the MAP sensor. I was thinking about putting a 90 degree elbow where the 3500 MAP goes to hook right up to the stock MAP and not have to worry about moving it.

          Other note, the new GM plenums don't have the vacuum line near the alt (there is room for it but its not tapped and fitted with one). The car-part ones usually do have a vacuum line there. Most gen 3s have that plugged though anyway and you don't need it.

          I am not sure on the non roller heads with the 2000 lower. I dont have any of those rocker arms here to do any testing with. I would grind down a bit more on the manifold just to be safe if you don't test fit it first. Hell, test fit it with the old gaskets in place and torqued down. Turn the engine over slowly and watch the rockers. Thats the best way about it.

          Gains? No idea. Hard to say what the computer will limit you to power wise. I leave the guessing to others.
          Ben
          60DegreeV6.com
          WOT-Tech.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Hmm I need the vacuum port by the alt, so I'll be going car-part.
            How can I turn the engine over slowly other than hitting the starter?

            Oh, how bad is the 56mm TB going restrict me? I'll still see gains with the 3500 over 3400 even with a 56mm right since it's design is different? I can always upgrade the TB later though so that's good.

            I figured you might pass on the gain estimate. I know my computer does learn and remember optimal settings pretty nicely after a while. Right now just hitting the throttle down to not even 25% I'm breaking the tires loose from stop & they catch quickly after that. WOT is different story. Running 205/55/16. Can't wait to see what this setup will do. I'm going try to get parts asap and have it done at least by mid-july.

            If only I had thought of this before last november I'd saved money on LIM gaskets and had the project done. I might skip the metal fel-pro ones and just get another crappy stock one to save some cash because of that... (didn't know about them at the time either!) doh.... Too bad my 94 LIM gasket won't work on the 3400 LIM as it's not that old... grrr.

            You'll probably beat me to getting the bolts, as I'm going to try to get a deal on a used 3500 plenum first before I go for bolts. Shopping around right now TB's from other vehicles close to ~60mm just for the fun of it. Might hack one up so it just bolts directly to the 3500 heh. I'll probably end up with 3400 56mm though so it's easy bolt on and forget about it.

            I'm going to ask Brad about the LIM and 94 rockers issue.... I believe his setup is using that and he is the one who had the issues back in the day...

            Thanks again!
            sigpic New 2010 project (click image)
            1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles
            16.0 1/4 mile when stock. Now ???
            Original L82 Longblock
            with LA1, LX9, LX5 parts
            Manifold-back 2.5" SS Mandrel Exhaust. Hardware is SS too.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by sappyse107
              You can reuse the lower intake bolts, but not the plenum. They are 2.565" long (stock and the NAPA ones). Just take your stock plenum bolt to their nut and bolt rack and find one with your thread pitch and that length. I wanna say M10x1.25 but I could be wrong. I gotta go back to napa and figure it out (or you can tell me if you get them). I wanna order some nice stainless steel bolts to put on the store for them. Im sure GM wants 8 bucks a bolt like everything else they sell.
              The Plenum bolts are a M8

              To be honest I didn't notice much of a difference when I only had 3500 plenum and 65mm TB on. I am sure there was a gain, but it wasn't that notiable to me.

              However since you have a 3.1L and are upgrading to the 3400 lower and the 3500 upper I would think that you would notice a little more gain.

              You might also want to look into swapping over to the 3400 heads as well, it would only cost you about $100 for a set of heads.
              2000 Grand Am GT
              2011 Chevy Impala

              "The world's best cam combined with a poor set of heads will produce an engine that's a dog. But bolt on a set of great heads even with a poor cam, and that engine will still make great power." ~John Lingenfelter

              Comment


              • #8
                Not much of a difference with 3500 and 65mm? When did you notice the difference?

                Swapping the heads,, uhh much more involved? more cost for heads.. Might as well buy a whole 3400 then.. I'm sure the extra cost of the heads and shipping would be equal or more. Would I re-use the old push rods??? Then I need new bolts, and gaskets, as you can see cost rises up there quickly then... My old motor is high in mileage, but runs way better than any other 3100 I've drove. Just looking for a little extra pep for not a lot of money. If I was going go as far as heads I'd just do a whole 3400 with cam and P&P.

                Unless you can convince me that it won't be much harder and won't cost much more.... I'm listening if you can!
                sigpic New 2010 project (click image)
                1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles
                16.0 1/4 mile when stock. Now ???
                Original L82 Longblock
                with LA1, LX9, LX5 parts
                Manifold-back 2.5" SS Mandrel Exhaust. Hardware is SS too.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I noticed a difference after I installed the 3500 top end, headers, and tuned it a little.

                  I might just be bad at the whole butt dyno game though.
                  2000 Grand Am GT
                  2011 Chevy Impala

                  "The world's best cam combined with a poor set of heads will produce an engine that's a dog. But bolt on a set of great heads even with a poor cam, and that engine will still make great power." ~John Lingenfelter

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Having 10 degrees KR will kill any mods you do for the most part. He had that stock and it didn't get any better with mods so its a little skewed for comparison there.

                    You can't do heads cheap. More gaskets plus you would want to at least have them decked, cleaned, valve job, new springs, and new seals. Valves possibly. Just do what you can for a budget upgrade now and save for a motor later on. Its a much better deal for the 3400 complete to rebuild as you can do it while you drive your current one and do whatever you want with ease since it will be on a stand (or a tire depending on just how bad your budget is).

                    However, even stock, the 3400 heads are better quality and flow better than your current 3100 heads. Check the pushrod section of the site for the flowsheets. I dont think thats a 6 cylinder comparison either, just 1 each. Your current heads are crap for equal flow in and out of each cylinder.
                    Ben
                    60DegreeV6.com
                    WOT-Tech.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Heh, I'm pretty sensitive when things change. I can usualy tell somethings off before I even glance at the gauges and it registers.

                      Hopefully going to the hassle and extra cost of the 3500 will be worth it over the 3400. (I could get both 3400 u/l for $cheap!!!) I may get the 3400 upper to have just in case I have issues with the 3500, as swapping uppers is cake compared to lower.

                      Did I read you had KR even stock? I think that's why my car runs so good compared to some peoples 3100's. Looking through the spark plug holes it looks nice and clean inside at least. I know if I don't use at least 89 octane my timing goes out the window and throttle response is piss poor in hot summer heat. Now we have 10% ethanol everywhere but one station, so the 87/89 is the same but I get bad mileage of course compared to normal 89 straight gas. But so does everyone else who has ethanol in their gas. The difference I see on the gas gauge moving is quite surprising. Seems like 89 non-ethanol I can romp on it for hours and the needle won't move.

                      Anywho, 2 questions here:
                      1) Is it worth the extra $$ and effort to go 3500 upper over 3400?
                      2) Is the 56mm TB going to cancel out any gains from the 3500 over 3400?
                      sigpic New 2010 project (click image)
                      1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles
                      16.0 1/4 mile when stock. Now ???
                      Original L82 Longblock
                      with LA1, LX9, LX5 parts
                      Manifold-back 2.5" SS Mandrel Exhaust. Hardware is SS too.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Its not much more effort to do the 3500 really. Money, dunno, hard to say since we dont have accurate before and after without KR on the engine. 56mm won't really cancel out the shorter runner and more airflow (after port matching) plus the more even air distribution from the 3500 over the 96-99 3400 plenum.

                        Why waste money on the 3400 plenum if you will use the 3500 plenum now and would still be worthy for any other upgrades you do later to the motor. That is how I look at it.
                        Ben
                        60DegreeV6.com
                        WOT-Tech.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          sappy: thought he had KR stock. What about the above 2 new questions?
                          I agree heads aren't worth it right now. Everyone must keep in mind I'm not doing a "build up" here, just treating my old motor to some nice bolt on manifolds. Not looking to spend a lot here or do a whole lot. Just figured I might gain 15-20 HP optimistically without a major tear down or motor swap, so why not?
                          sigpic New 2010 project (click image)
                          1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles
                          16.0 1/4 mile when stock. Now ???
                          Original L82 Longblock
                          with LA1, LX9, LX5 parts
                          Manifold-back 2.5" SS Mandrel Exhaust. Hardware is SS too.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            sappy, heh you replied twice in a row while I was replying.

                            Why buy a 3400 upper?, Well when you can get a package deal of 3400 upper and lower for $25, why not? heheheh. So getting just a 3500 upper will cost more obviously.

                            That's what I was thinking, 3" shorter runners and better air distribution, it's a better overall manifold in other areas than just flow. I may even just use my stock 52mm throttle body, but I can probbly get a 56mm for $25?.

                            Is 4mm a noticeble difference?
                            sigpic New 2010 project (click image)
                            1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles
                            16.0 1/4 mile when stock. Now ???
                            Original L82 Longblock
                            with LA1, LX9, LX5 parts
                            Manifold-back 2.5" SS Mandrel Exhaust. Hardware is SS too.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ive got a 56mm here if you want it. I use TBs for cores for the billet TBs so I dont use the plates or body. You will need to swap your shaft out but thats real simple and it will take the 56mm no problem. You can have it for $15 shipped.

                              Its probably noticable. For 15 bucks its hard to lose:P

                              25 for both is a hell of a deal then. Id still get the 3500 plenum though. You could just use the 3400 for now and go to a 3500 later. Its not that hard to swap it out and would save you some money. 3400 beats small port 3100 easily.

                              If you want the TB, just PM me.
                              Ben
                              60DegreeV6.com
                              WOT-Tech.com

                              Comment

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