3.9 Liter LZ8 specifications needed

[Beau]

My humble apologies, all of the data I've ever seen b/t what is available for both the 3800 SII platform and any 60 degree v6 from GM has always favored the 3800 SII heads in terms of flow, and to be honest it still sucks. I had 3.1 heads flowed and they were miserable. I flowed ported 3.1 heads again aweful. I've seen data for ported 3.4 and 3.8 heads, and Ive honestly never seen any 60 degree flow sheet that showed good numbers. Perhaps I haven't come across the correct data. So again my humble apologies.

*Edit, had a comment for GPSE but, I've decided to take the high road*



I would like some help in finding the RIGHT data, especially in regards to the new 3.9. It seems like a fantastic motor, people out there are saying the motor is being pushed to its limits, I honestly feel that is a garbage statment, I think the motor is good for 275 crank horse with Intake, Exhaust, Rocker and PCM work, sure sounds like a good motor to me.

I just need some help getting specs, if anyone can dig some stuff up I would surley appreciate it.

[gpse3400]

oh Beau...beautiful.....Beau! The fact that you actually think 60v6 heads flow that much worse than your 30 year old+ patched together buick heads, by all means!! I"LL LET YOU take the high road of ignorance. I mean hell! If you really think your old iron slabs are that great, Let us handicap them like our engines are. Tell GM to pull those mini headers that they have been installing on that motor since god knows when, make whole exhaust 2 friggen inches, remove that blower, and knock the displacement down to our size and you'll be saying oh! Actually they would never do that....... Because THAT ENGINE WILL BE ON IT'S WAY OUUUUUUUUT!!!!!

heres some trivia for you. FI for FI
early Buick 3.0 no balance shaft 120 hp
early Chevy 2.8 Iron Heads 120-140 hp


Lastly I love the Turbo Buick GN but...the 3800 is not the same turbo motor...

[Beau]

Thats right the 3800 SII is a superior motor to the old GN motors in every way.
Flow, Power, Fueling. Everything.

Now Gm did get the power adder wrong this is correct.

My point is if you want me to believe that the 60 degree GM motors are better. Please help me obtain the correct data for the LZ8/LZ9

I do have some guestimated data to produce an accurate curve. But Im sure its off.

This is stock versus, no intake restriction (mandrel bent 3 inch CAI)

some data used

that data is with the intake of course

This is Gms stock data, of course Ive done the best I could with mimicing the operation of the LZ9, Im sure I've gotten it wrong though.



I believe the modification is accurate, based on the 3.5 obtaining 11 WHP and 11 WTQ from Injen.

These numbers are of course without drivetain loss/

[bszopi]

What are you comparing? Are you trying to compare stock LZ9 numbers to L67 numbers? So NA to boost? Or are you trying to compare the LZ9 to the L36? I'm still lost as to your comparisons...

As far as getting information, good luck. I get info from GM directly on alot of new stuff, but even they don't let alot of information public. I've tried to get much less detailed information from them with little success, so good luck trying to get what you are looking for. The only way to do it most likely (unless you can find a GM engineer willing to give the info out) pick up a motor and tear it down and find the info yourself.

[Manitcor]

explain to me how us providing you with information on this engine will somehow convince you. You sound like you have already made up your mind. We arent ZZP or intense so its not like we cna just get a brand new crate engine and tear it apart. If you want tear your new G6 apart, have a ball. Besides with your comments and attitude I would be surprised if anyone would want to help you even if we had the info.

Why dont you sell that 3.9 to someone here who appreciates it and go on and swap the god of all motors, the L67, into to your new car.

[Beau]

WTF are you guys talking about.

I am completley in awe of your attitudes.

I think honestly you are picking up a completley different TONE than Im trying to put down here. (the Beauty of the internet)

And also Im surprised there were no comments on the data and estimations I've tried to post.

Im trying to BUILD the community and information base here, and I was turning to you guys for help.

The reason why Im interested in the LZ9 is because for the first time some of the 60 degree motors actually made horsepower.

I'm incredibly impressed that aside from .1 liter larger, and VVT the 3.9 Makes more horse than the 3.8 would with the same technology.

Thats why Im excited.

SO please enough attacking me, Im honestly not battling you guys. I never intended too.

Now for the graphs I've posted.

The Gm graph is what Ive based my graphs off of. Ive tried to design and theorize from what I know GM likes to do, and from what the LZ9 is capable of, and I made the curve.

Would you agree the curves B/T the red and Maroon Lines are similar to the GM graph I posted?

The blue and Green lines Ive posted are with no intake restriction, and I believe it accuratly simulates the modification. This is what I'm aiming for, so we can get some theroretical preliminary data on a modification without spending lots of time and money on something that may not nessicarily benefit the output.

I've been working on some exhaust data particularly for headers, and there is a lot more power to be had with a longer primary, and secondary exhaust design.

On average 16 inch primarys (On average obiously space prevents this) and a 15 inch secondary (or collector and crossover) would provide significant exhaust tuning.

I will try and get some more data on this.

Again, I sincerley apologise if I have offended anyone, I need you guys to help me so we can work together, thats what I would like.

I forgive and forget very easily, and you guys have said some pretty rough stuff to me, and I honestly look pass that.

[gpse3400]

Thats right the 3800 SII is a superior motor to the old GN motors in every way.
Flow, Power, Fueling. Everything.

Huh? Excuse you? I'm sorry you stepped in what? That engine was constructed in such a way that it will take 600+ hp before it'll ever send a rod through the side...which is more that I can say for the 3800's lovely service record. Everytime I go to the track those GNs are pretty much one of the fastest things there. Everytime I see a car with a 3800, it isn't. Which is why the turbo 3.8 is in the automotive history books and your coveted 3800 isn't nor will it ever be. Standing now in the dark shadows of the LS4.

Trivia time again,
'89 Turbo Buick 250 HP, actual 300+ hp
38002SC 240 HP

[Beau]

Honest to God, Im not trying to start anything, but do some research on Club GP first.

Don't confuse a bad power adder like the M90 non intercooled with a Turbo either intercooled or not.

The L36 isn't the strongest motor ever, but L67 is very tough. As long as there isn't any detonation, the motor really doesn't break down.

Thats why we have a 9 second GP on a stock bottom end (l67). Its a good motor.

Please lets not bring in a crazy debate about if the 3.8 SII is a good motor or not, constructive comparisons are welcome, if you want a Debate, we can start another thread.

But Seriously, check out club GP.

[gpse3400]

No thanks. I find club gp about a credible as you. And at the moment, you aren't high on my credibilty list. You are right down there with bush which is down pretty close to swamp goo. That 9 second thing has no interior. Most GN's run with full interior and would still go faster so don't give me that crap. And don't tell me or any of us what is or isn't welcome you arrogant sob.

[Manitcor]

Please lets not bring in a crazy debate about if the 3.8 SII is a good motor or not, constructive comparisons are welcome, if you want a Debate, we can start another thread.

Why are you so surprised at the way people are acting toward you? You come onto this site asking for information on an engine so new no one has any info (trust me, many of us are digging for every scrap we can find on it). When we cant/dont awnser you to your satisfaction you go off on a rant about how inferior the 60v6 is to the mighty 3800. You have no information to back up your claims other than "3x00 heads flow like crap". You do this on a board dedicated to the 60v6 and you expect anyone to wish to help you.

I dont know what you get away with on club GP but since Ive never heard your name im guessing you say whatever you want because everyone just ignores you.

As an aside the 3400 was such a terrible motor that it made only 20 horse power and 20 torque less than the 3800. Mind you the 3400 was almost a full half litere smaller, lacked the decent manifolds the 3800 got and genrally ran on a fuel economy tune.

The new 3500 makes the same amount of power as a stock 3800 and the non VVT version is only short by about 10hp. All in all I would say not bad for a engine that is smaller and has less advtanges as far as what GM bolted to it.

Anyway, as Ive said before we dont have alot of information on the 3900, what you can find on this site via searching (esp once we get the content system back up) is about all we have. It would be nice if GM published numbers on thier heads and such but they dont. Many of us are shade treee mechanics so even when some of us have the money to get a 3900 we lack the facalites neccassary to tear into one and find these things out.

You can always disassemble your topend and send it out to be measured and flowed. Since your going for boost I would reccomend it. There might even be someone here that can do that kind of work.

I reccomend thinking carefully about what you post in the future, people here are quick to jump on 3800 guys simply because we have an endless parade of them who for some reason or another feel the need to make thier penis feel large by coming over here and starting shit about something they know nothing about short of whats published in edmunds.

[gpse3400]

As an aside the 3400 was such a terrible motor that it made only 20 horse power and 20 torque less than the 3800. Mind you the 3400 was almost a full half litere smaller, lacked the decent manifolds the 3800 got and genrally ran on a fuel economy tune.

To close the gap further, the 3400 made 185 hp and 210 tq in the minivans. 3100s made 175 hp and 195 tq in W cars. So more like published 15 hp gap on the 3400. So yeah it not too far off.

[Beau]

Thanks Manticor.

I see, I wasn't aware you guys had a lot of people from CGP or 3800 guys that come over here and start talking up crap.

Guys I've never once said that the 3800 SII heads weren't crap did I? I kinda came over here with the, were brothers attitude, and these are the things I'm concerned about, and I figured I'd get responses like the origonal one that manticor gave me right after my "concerns" post.

All I have is comparisons to go from. For instance, on a fully stock 3.8 SII, 400WHP at about 16 PSI. This puts people into the low 12's high 11's if they have suspensions and drag radials yadda yadda. But I've seen turbo kits nicer than most of the ones our community has for the 3.4 and yet to even see the car drive with video, so I have no idea how they run, other than no one made a fuss about it.

And the reason I've decided to come check out the 3.9 etc, was because of the fact the 3.5 now makes more horse than the 3.8 NA .4 liters larger than it, thats a big deal to me. And that it only took .1 liter larger NA to run 240 horse as oppose to my L67. I think thats marvelous.

Trust me im not dogging the 60 degree. We feel the same way about our 3.8. I know the 3.8s heads flow like garbage. I've developed parts for it. Stock LD9 2.4 Liter heads on my moms 96 Grand am Flow better intake side than our best race ported head does :-D LOL

I just know the L67 has a very very stout bottom end, but what would anyone expect, the whole motor is "50" year old cast Iron parts with a 4 bolt main.

Making terrible numbers by the industrys standard.

But I found some hope with the 3.9. Im a GM man first, I don't hold loyalty to one over another product. Im loyal to GM because, thats all Ive been my whole life, and they are a bit of an underdog right now, and I expect to see things change. Public perspective can help to skew a little bit when they start seeing G6 GTPs run in the 12s, or 10s with some boost. Now this is a small percentage that would even look, but its something. Plus its fun! Now the vehicle quality is something GM needs to work on, but thats another topic.

I appreciate all of the help you guys have provided so far, and completley understand there isn't much data available.

There have been some rumors by the way about 3 valve head for the 3.9 for the G6 GXPs etc? Anyone hear of this? They've announced the possibility at the very inception of the LZ8/LZ9 but as GM is prone to do, scrapping any good idea that they've had, wonder whats going on with that.

[bszopi]

There is a thread somewhere around here discussing the 3-valve heads...

As far as some powerful 60V6s, here is a dyno pull for a turno'd 3400 with a stock bottom end:



I'm sure Todd would be more than happy to discuss his build more. I'll try to find a video of one of his runs as well...

His best runs so far are 13.7s on stock tires. There is another guy running an SC'd 3400 on DRs running 13.3s.

[TurboZ24]

I could post up the 2 turbo 60 degrees here too.

Steve's 3.1 wagon. Stock except mild cam and a little head work. 229.1 wheel HP and 261.7 wheel ft lbs @ 6 psi. Best run was a 13.9@105 on street tires.

My 3.1, stock block and crank 310.2 wheel HP and 290 wheel ft lbs @ 7 psi. Best run 12.3@114-115 (too lazy too look)

For me, the big reason you don't see the 60 degree cars running faster times has nothing too do with the motors, it has everything too do with the transmission choices. For most of the 60 degree owners, we are basically stuck with some tranny choices that just can't take it. I'm on my 3rd transmission. they used too last 3 trips too the track, now I doubt they would last 1 trip, which is why I decided too never race the car again.

[Beau]

Yeah I think we all suffer from the GM AUTO limitations :]

Those numbers look pretty good, and im not exactly sure what the setups are but.
... I should preface this comment with, Im a top end kinda guy, just to give people an idea...

The only thing about those dynos are, its peak horse is at 4400 rpm. Like I said I don't know the setup, but that is very wrong, in my opinion. But I guess its because I was so annoyed with the L67 having only bottom end that I decided to make sure there was nothing hampering its top end performance.

So I went with a T62-1 with .81 A/R, Full tubular front and rears, along with a 3 inch down pipe. 2.5 inch charge piping with the largest Spearco Front mount that could be mounted to the W body without any modifications.

I think the 3x00s could push more horse if the compressors were sized appropriatly. (Turbos are a specialty of mine) But if that person wanted crazy crazy torque, they certinly achieved it!

Thats a great WHP for 7 psi TurboZ!

I'm just getting more and more excited about the 3900. It would be sweet if there were dished forged pistons available for it (it will one day), but first I know we will all have to wonder what we are going to do for tuning. :]

Oh and by the way TurboZ those are very respectable 1/4 Times, I do not base a huge emphasis on 1/4 times as I am more of an effiency junky. I understand there are SO many crazy variables out there that prevent people from running faster. Heck FWD being a big one sometimes