Power on a Budget

[Inmt_21878]

I own a 2dr 92 GP SE (w/gtp apperance) and really just want an experinced point of view about gaining at least an entertaing amount of power on a budget.

I have read forums in here before mentioning high compression pistons adding 50hp in a 3.1 but want someone to seriously clarify it.
If so, I was thinking save up for pistons, do some bolts - ons, and sometime eventually 272 cams, and have it ported.

any responses is appreciated..

[bszopi]

RE: Power on a Budget

High compression pistons with alot of other accompaning mods maybe... cam, heads, headers, tuning. High CR pistons alone won't gain you 50hp.

[SappySE107]

RE: Power on a Budget

Swap a 3400 in there. Its cheaper than doing all that other work and is so much better. If you don't want to swap the whole motor, at least use the top end on your current 3.1. Tuning is important for this type of setup as well.

[Rosez34]

or you can just spray your stock motor...for less than 500 dollars you can go mid 14's

[Inmt_21878]

Swap a 3400 in there. Its cheaper than doing all that other work and is so much better. If you don't want to swap the whole motor, at least use the top end on your current 3.1. Tuning is important for this type of setup as well.

I had that idea too but was skeptical about a 3400 since reading and hearing so many comments about it's bad reliablity. If I do decided to do a swap what would be the best way to buy one and at what price could I get a decent 3400?

[SappySE107]

3400s are great as long as you take care of the lower intake gaskets. here is an update gasket for the older 3400s, and that takes care of it. Ebay or our buy/sell/trade seem to be good places to look.

[n0rt0npr0]

So if he swaps the whole 3400, which computer needs to control it? Original 3.1L or the 3400's donor?

[Manitcor]

the stock PCM should be able to run it without too much trouble, though it would be best to atleast get a PCM and harnes from a 94 w-body with the 3100/4t60 in it.

[X11_STE]

Just out of curiousity, why does it seem like everyones forgot about the "lowly" 2.8 and 3.1? Yea, there is less of a performance market for them and thats makes them a little more tricky to build up (well, not more tricky but requires more searching and more leg work to get it right). Frankly it comes across, IMHO, as the 3400 is the only motor thats worth a damn. Sappyse, I've kinda been following your posts and as Tyre only believes in the 3800sc it seems you only believe in the 3400. I am not singling you out in this, there are others that come across this way. The 2.8 and 3.1 are basicly the same engine so shouldnt that make it easier to build? Why arent there more parts available for these engines? With my X-11, I would NEVER dream of putting a 3400 in it (its a mini muscle machine so it would not be right to put fuel injection in) so does this mean I get left behind? I dunno.
Anyways, end rant.

[SappySE107]

There were way more parts for the 2.8/3.1, however the money it takes to get them to the level of the 3400 is way more than the cost of the 3400 swap. I could say 3100/3400 but like you say, they are pretty much the same motor anyway. Its not for everyone, but the 2.8/3.1 is not for me either. You did single me out btw.

The cam price for a 3.1 is about a 1/3 of that for the 3400. The heads don't flow nearly the same, and it would cost quite a bit to pay someone to modify the exhaust port accordingly, or a lot of your own time. The intake manifolds on the FWD 2.8/3.1 suck. Ill flow test them later to show this but I can tell you I was surprised how well the 00+ gen 3 stuff does in terms of not restricting flow. Its far from excellent but with porting, you can get them to flow real well.

What parts do you need for a 2.8/3.1? You can get custom intake manifolds if you have the money! There have been custom heads made though that is few and far between. The internals are all swappable so there is no issue there at all.

I cannot focus on every motor, cause I am only 1 person and I have a duty to myself to try to make money. The 2.8/3.1 is my past. I built a 3.1, and I will never do it again.

BTW, I believe in the 3.4 DOHC just as much as the 3400 overall. 3100 only has the slight displacement disadvantage.

[SappySE107]

btw, i don't know much on iron head/rwd stuff. I am talking FWD comparison only on the 3.1 vs 3100.

[X11_STE]

Sappy, I wasnt trying to start an arguement here and I apologize for singling you out. I just happen to notice that your vocal about the 3400. I agree, the 2.8/3.1 isnt for everyone and there isnt much money to be made on them. For me, I wouldnt swap the 2.8 out of my '81 X-11. It has plenty of torque, its DAMN reliable, and has an exhaust that none of the bigger motors can match. And iron heads to boot. I know nothing of the flow numbers but I would imagen that since my car has the first year H.O. 2.8 the heads should flow OK and maybe a little better when the are ported and polished. How does the edelbrock intake flow vs. something more modern? As far as parts I need, I need a cam. I want the powerband to be 1500-7000rpm. The headers I'll make or have made and everything else I can get rather easily.
When you built your 3.1, what turned you off so badly?
Anyways, my main rant is everyone lately is all swap for bigger and theres nothing wrong with these motors, hell, they CAN be even more fun. Plus they are reliable as all get out.

[SappySE107]

My 3.1 didnt have any top end. The gen 2 intakes just wont allow it for NA. This is why the gen 3 is so much better, mid and top end. Add compression and cam and you can get the low end back to an extent. Unless you wanna roast your tires, the 3.1 intakes aren't worth much. I don't even advertise porting for them as I feel its a complete waste of time (i noticed no difference on my 3.1 when I put stock manifolds back on). I haven't got a clue on the edelbrock setup or any non port injected setups.

1500-7000 isn't going to be an easy powerband without variable intakes or timing. That is like a 3.1 and a 3.4 DOHC as one motor. If you want to talk non swap on the whole motor, I would still go with the top end swap.

For the record, running a 16.8 in a grand prix with thousands into a 3.1 doesn't make you the biggest 3.1 fan. I could pull to 4500 like everyone else, had a little more top end than most, but still worthless overall. You can ask GPXSS or GPSE3200 about it and they will probably say the same thing. I think Franz (xlr8ing) is the only one out of our original group still modifying the gen 2 engine.

Im just trying to keep others from wasting their time and money like I did. If they want to go about modifying their 2.8/3.1 FWD still, at least they can learn what doesn't matter.

Your application has no reference to my 3.1. A custom intake and headers would probably be very sufficient, but its not power on a budget IMO. You wont get stock 3400 numbers for less than the cost of a 3400. The variable is the amount of time you have, if you can do the swap yourself, and tuning. Tuning would be an issue on any of the motors though.

[TurboSedan]

IMO, and i am not sure i'm even qualified to say this, but....if you want to get power out of a GEN-II 2.8/3.1 you better be adding some boost. for low-budget, look into getting TGP parts. it isn't so easy for all GM FWD though (early L-bodies for example). there is some TGP stuff on ebay right now. a 5-speed swap will help even more, but staged boost control is a must in 1st and 2nd gear or you will be going nowhere. trust me

even with 10psi my car will fall on it's face past 4500 RPM. 4th gear and ecspecially 5th gear are essentially worthless. i need that 3400. for best of the best in the pushrod 60*V6 world while on a low budget, you can't beat the 3400. they can be had soooo cheap i feel kind of stupid for even bothering with turbocharging this LH0 in the first place.

if boost isn't your thing, i still say go with the 3400.

[X11_STE]

OK, well, I guess I shot my mouth off in the wrong thread. Mine is a very early 1st gen 2.8 iron head carb. My comments are based solely on my expierences. So far, every 2.8 I've owned pulls HARD to 6k+ with no "dead spots". Actually, I raced a lo-po 2.8 carb against a 4.3 vortec and wound my little mouse to over 7k and won. Only damage to my motor was a spun cam seal and a spun #6 rod bearing. Motor pised oil leak it was going out of style (literaly a gallon a week) but comtinued to run and drive for another month and a half before requiring a rebuild. I would love to see ANY 3.1, 3100, 3.4, or 3.4 dohc do that.
How about thowing out some figures for cost vs. cost? I honestly dont know how much a 3.4 swap costs. But headers can be built for $200. When I got my intake and carb I paid $500 for the whole car, so figure $200 for those parts. A cam can be had for under $100 (a crane 272 cam just sold on evilbay for $30). So figure we're up to $500. P&P can run you upwards of $400 (depending on where you are and who you know). Your still under a grand, so how is this not cost effective? Yea, your not going to be making 200+hp but theres enough power there to be respectable.
I dunno, as I said before, I may be barking up the wrong thread here and I really dont want an arguement here. I just think the 2.8/3.1's are rather neglected and wrongfully dissed.