Electric Water pump?

[AaronGTR]

I gotta go with raven on this. It's been proven that an electrical pump will give horsepower back to the engine by decreasing mechanical drag. Is it worth the effort for a street car... probably not... but the fact is that it will do what it's supposed to. Betterthanyou's theory of energy lost to inefficiency is flawed. Yes, you will use some electricity driving the pump, but that is being drawn from an existing source of power so you aren't putting any form of drag back on the engine by using an electric pump. The engine is already turning the alternator to power other things, and the alternator makes more than enough current to power multiple things. The engine doesn't have to turn the alternator more in order to power an electric water pump. Where's the power loss at? Sorry, it's not there. In fact that's why there's a power gain. You are taking power already lost to the alternator and making it more efficient by using that power to run something else that would otherwise use more of the engine's power.

[TurboZ24]

I looked into electric pumps myself a while back, because I was concerned that spinning the stock 3.1 pump upto 8000 rpm engine speed was going too do something bad (hasn't yet). The problems I had with a lot of electric pump setups was.... 1 lots of them are intended for drag only and do not provide enough flow for a "Street" engine. 2, the ones that do flow enough cost a bunch of cash. I guess someone needs too take a 3.1/3100, control the coolant flow, and then beat the crap out of the car too see how many GPM you really need on the cooling system.

As for HP draw from the alternator, the alternator's HP draw increases with the load on the electrical system. Here is some sample info on the subject... http://www.svapowerproducts.com/html...lternator.html

I'd think that the oil pump actually might waste more HP than the water pump, though. We are talking about relatively small amounts of HP, though. You could always do what some old School guys do and remove some of the vanes from the water pump....

[geoffinbc]

Ok Turbos is the only one who makes sense so far.

Do you people not understand that power, is power, is power, is power. I dont give a fuck where it comes from. EVERYTHING TAKES POWER to run. You take that electric motor turning that mechanical pump and it will suck the same power as if it were taking power off the belt. ONLY it will, in actual fact waste more because you have converted energy more times. My pump that I posted compared to that electric belt drive was not my point. Both are going to do the same job pretty much, except that vacuum cleaner motor just looks like shit, thats all.

I am not trying to steer anyone away from an electric water pump. They do work and will put HP to the wheels because while the motor is spining at 6000 RPM the pump is still turning at a constant slower speed so it will drain less power. I am just saying please do it right.

If you can prove cavitation is actually occcuring at say 6000RPM then be my guest. Because if it is you are actually freeing HP since a pump turning in a cavitation state takes pretty much no energy to turn But in that case your cooling potential turns to shit LOL.

Raven if you dont think an electric motor turning a mechanical pump is a high current draw then you got another thing comming. If you figure it is at LEAT a 1 HP (being so super consertive) draw to turn a mechanical water pump then that my friend is, at the VERY LEAST a 50 AMP (considering a 14 volt output) draw off your alternator. Thats half the god damn capacity of a stock alternator.

This thread is like an electric supercharger argument.

[sprucegagt]

Do you people not understand that power, is power, is power, is power. I dont give a fuck where it comes from. EVERYTHING TAKES POWER to run. You take that electric motor turning that mechanical pump and it will suck the same power as if it were taking power off the belt. ONLY it will, in actual fact waste more because you have converted energy more times. My pump that I posted compared to that electric belt drive was not my point. Both are going to do the same job pretty much, except that vacuum cleaner motor just looks like shit, thats all.

I know I'm new here but I wanted to clear something up. The efficiency of an electric motor is not the same as an engine. Instead the electric motor is way more efficient up to a certain size. BTU this is where your theory is wrong. That electric motor will take less power to turn a water pump than straight off of the crank pulley. How do I know this, simple, its my job as a project engineer with an Electrical Engineering degree.

Raven if you dont think an electric motor turning a mechanical pump is a high current draw then you got another thing comming. If you figure it is at LEAT a 1 HP (being so super consertive) draw to turn a mechanical water pump then that my friend is, at the VERY LEAST a 50 AMP (considering a 14 volt output) draw off your alternator. Thats half the god damn capacity of a stock alternator.

If this were true then why does Moroso's instructions for that motor state to use a 10 amp fuse in your power connections?

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/catego...?catcode=29007[/url]

[geoffinbc]

It doesn't matter how efficient the electric motor is. That water pump still has to be turned by something. In the end its getting its power right off the crank. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Take that Moroso setup vs just a straight pulley ok. Both use a belt to turn the same pump so lets cancel that out. Belt doesn't exist ok.

Now lets look at the path the pump is getting its energy from

Moroso setup = Crank > Alternator > Electric Motor > Pump

Plain jane setup = Crank > Pump

So why not eliminate 2 un needed energy changes?

Why did I say 50A simple I asumed a pump would take at least 1 hp to turn. And I sure hope it is at least that if you are going to stay cool for a long trip on the street.

1HP = 750 watts
P=VI
750=14(alt voltage) * I
750/14=53.57 Amps
I rounded down to be nice. Now with an electrical degree I though you woulda figured that out pretty quick.

So lets look back at all this. Moroso says a water pump can rob up to 15 HP correct? Now again this is of course going to be with the mottor runnin balls to the wall to make Moroso's claim true. So lets say on an average run to the grocery store the pump is maybe actually using 2 to 5 HP I dont know pick a number. The fact is if that motor is runnin off a 10A fuse then it will only supply a small fraction of the power needed to keep the engine cool. THAT IS WHY PEOPLE Moroso lists it for DRAG USE ONLY. Which right there tells me and anyone listening that this thing will only keep you cool long enough to make a run and to keep coolant flowing after a run for a quicker cooldown.

Electric Pumps = Good for track and not the street
Moroso Electric drive looks like a POS (my opinion) if it were me looking for an electric setup to use at the track I would pick one similar to what I posted above to do things right.

[bszopi]

It may rob 1HP, but that doesn't mean its a 1HP motor. A 1HP motor is pretty big, especially at 14v. It is most likely a fractional HP motor. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't rob the engine of 1HP. You have to look at all of the friction losses associated with turning the accessories. That will be where your power loss will come from.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611772346&ccitem=

There is a 90V 1/3hp DC motor. Draws 3.6A (FLA) and is 11.6" long. Drop that down to a 14V motor and it would be huge.

[geoffinbc]

Well I figured the pump would need 1hp to turn. Obviously that motor can't make 1 HP (it could for its size if it spun really fast) but it never will of a 10A fuse thats impossible.

[Guest]

HAHAHAHAHAHA, 50 amps to run an electric pump??!

You should really use one before you comment on them. In most cases the constant current draw of an electric pump set-up is 15 amps (or less).

Yes there will be a SLIGHT increase in load on the alternator which will in turn present a slightly higher load to the crank, that wouldn't be there if the pump wasn't turned on, but a hell of a lot less than running the water pump off the crank, hense why it works, you even said so in your post.

Don't back step and say that you were not comparing the originally posted drive set-up to to the one you pictured, you are. Your words were:

Ha ha thats hokey. LOL never seen such a POS. If you wana do it right you need a porper remote mount pump and motor

Then:

No man that thing looks like shit. Honestly what are you going to gain? You are goin to change energy 3 times and each time you will loose power to inefficiency. You have to go from mechanical (engine) to electrical (alternator) back to mechanical (pump) rather that just running a belt from one pulley to the other off the crank. The only difference an electric setup offers is a constant pump speed. This in itself doesn't even make sense since the harder and faster the motor is working the harder and faster the cooling system should work. Power comes from somewhere its not free. So electric or mechanical pump they will both draw the same energy (the electric one will use more infact because of all teh energy changes) for a given output. So if you are worried about that mechanical pump taking too much power away at teh top end then run a larger pulley on the end of your pump.

Sorry but for what it gives in return for your investment it aint worth it. Along with that you have a big ugly bracket sticking off your engine and a motor that looks like it came from a vacuum cleaner.

This is a real remote mount electric water pump setup
http://static.summitracing.com/globa.../csi-925_w.jpg

Hmm, sounds like you were definatly making a direct comparison, that was ill informed from the beginning.

I have already stated both designs do the exact same function, both take electrical power and convert it to mechanical energy to turn vanes of a pump, one is a more direct drive while the other converts an pump and uses a belt, you agreed, though for some reason you still insist there is less efficiancy with something, what you are arguing I'm not sure, since you keep flipping between comparing the two different types of pump set-ups and comparing electrical pumps to mechanical.

You lose, it has been PROVEN , time and again, that an electrical pump WILL free up more power, through reduction in parasitic HP loss, taken from the crank.

Oh BTW, I know of a number of people that have extremly BUILT engines that run them on teh street with the electric drive. The reason Moroso says for "drag only" is legalities, they are covering thier own asses, if the belt were to come off, a fuse to blow or a motor to burn out whil cruising the strip and the owner doesn't notice thier temp climbing, before engine damage occurs. They put that disclaimer on there so that they can't be sued for some one elses neglegence.

Wanna know why it will work on the street? When is most heat created in an engine?, under highest load, meaning at high RPM, during accel. So the engine will heat up quicker at this point (we could get into a whole explaination of energy transfer here...), but at idle or cruise there is less heat created, so the pump doesn't need to turn as fast to keep up, hense why it works on street cars too.

If you want to talk about energy transfer:

Why drive?
After the car is running, you have to push the pedal down, which converts electrical implules from your brain to your muslec into kinetic energy, which inturn gets turned into mechanical energy, which then controls a whole slew of parts that injects fuel and pulls air into the engine , where the liquid and gas combination is converted into a heat source under pressure by a spark (electrical, more inefficiancy), which is then turned into a mechanical energy, which through inefficiancies of the drivetrain creates forward motion.
Why not just walk?

[sprucegagt]

Just a little FYI and part of what I was trying to say. Read the first section.

http://www.cloudelectric.com/generic.html?pid=66

[Guest]

P.S. We haven't even started discussing the benifits of being able to turn the pump OFF at any time.

[geoffinbc]

Raven I know electric pumps will return horsepower to the engine. Reason being is they are only putting out a small fraction of what a mechanical pump running off the crank will put out. Again I said FOR A GIVEN FLOW.

If you are only running a 15A fuse then the MAX the motor can put out is 0.2HP im sorry but this is a measley amount of power. Is this enough to cool a motor for a period of time? I highly doubt it.

Yes I am comparing the pump I posted to the Moroso one posted. I said the one I posted is better and is the right way to do it. However the same rule applies. Is the small electric motor which is only capable of a small output (again in comparison to a belt driven mechanical pump) good enough for the street?

They are good for the track and I never said they were not.

You guys started arguing and saying an electrical driven one is more efficient. But it IS NOT. Again if you compare an equal output from one pump, drive it off the crank with a belt it will be more efficient than using an electric motor capable of providing the same power.

[geoffinbc]

LOL I just had to.

[RednBlack]

Hard to type with them boxing gloves on huh? :P

[sprucegagt]

This is great. You guys crack me up.

[Guest]

Raven I know electric pumps will return horsepower to the engine. Reason being is they are only putting out a small fraction of what a mechanical pump running off the crank will put out. Again I said FOR A GIVEN FLOW.

If you are only running a 15A fuse then the MAX the motor can put out is 0.2HP im sorry but this is a measley amount of power. Is this enough to cool a motor for a period of time? I highly doubt it.

Yes I am comparing the pump I posted to the Moroso one posted. I said the one I posted is better and is the right way to do it. However the same rule applies. Is the small electric motor which is only capable of a small output (again in comparison to a belt driven mechanical pump) good enough for the street?

They are good for the track and I never said they were not.

You guys started arguing and saying an electrical driven one is more efficient. But it IS NOT. Again if you compare an equal output from one pump, drive it off the crank with a belt it will be more efficient than using an electric motor capable of providing the same power.

I guess it just depends on what you want to be "efficiant".....

The reason to put an electric pump on is because you want to free up HP, not because you want to nessisarily change the flow charateristics, or at least not for me and about 98% of people putting an electric pump on a vehcile, so again, your point is moot. Electric pumps work, and they work well for thier intended purpose.

Your point that I will argue to the death was that the Moroso/Mr. Gasket electric water pump drive is "the wrong way to do it", it is not, it's just another way to use electrical current to pump fluids. We could havethis same argument over OHV VS DOHC, or Ford VS Chevy, or Pepsi Vs Coke, lighters VS Matches, Canoes VS Kayaks, Transformers VS Go-Bots, Barney Vs Teletubbies.....

My point? Neither way is "right" nor "wrong", but different ways.

In this case the Moroso/Mr. Gasket electric drive is ideal for a 660, since there are no aftermarket bolt on electric pumps for the 660. The Drive would be much quicker and easier to adapt.