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**SappySE107** · 06-17-2005, 01:49 PM

RE: INTEREST IN BOTTOM END STUD GIRDLE?

If you can make this up for the gen 3s and the gen 2/DOHC motors, that would seriously rock. Ive been wanting something like this to appear for us along with crank scrapers. Im not sure how much lower you can go with the oil pan though once you start adding material to the bottom of the block. What about the oil pump? Will the pickup need to be modified for its depth in the pan?

**EspanolaGuitarista** · 06-17-2005, 04:27 PM

Cool...

I've been wanting something like that for my 302 in my Maverick. 3100 is two-bolt I presume like the 2.8 and 3.1. The best way to do this is to use balsa wood and make a pattern until you find what works the best. You can get 1/4 thick pieces. Then test for fit and see if those guys will make a custom piece. Old techniques still work the best is some situations.

**farmerz24** · 06-17-2005, 05:54 PM

RE: Cool...

it is 2 bolt. i am the one who will be making a designing the piece, much like the header flanges.....

too bad we couldnt get a 4 bolt cap setup aswell. i assume the dohc guys will love this too. anyone know if the cap spacing and bolt spacing is the same from the gen 2 - 3 aswell as the dohc? im also getting a dohc soon to play with so we will seee.

**SappySE107** · 06-17-2005, 06:03 PM

RE: Cool...

Cap spacing is the same. Once I get this 3100 on the stand, I will compare the mains with those of the DOHC and see if they are the same distance. I assume they are however as the DOHC was based off the pushrod block.

**geoffinbc** · 06-17-2005, 06:09 PM

And the cranks interchange

**farmerz24** · 06-18-2005, 04:40 PM

ok, so i was able to fit the 3x00 caps onto the dohc block. the only issue here seems to be the bolthole spacing on the 3x00 pan (when putitng it onto the dohc to ultilize the side cap bolts). One side lines up almost alright (i put the pan over the caps to ensure pan was centered on the block) The other side no holes are showing. YOu would need to fill the holes on one side and redrill new 3x00 size holes as the bolts for the pan are much bigger. I see this as a do-able mod.

Also, for the windage to work and supply much support, the main caps of the 3x00 must be shaved down flat (ie. right now they are humped around the bearing). If we mill them flat we can then run the flat girdle across the cap and capture it for even more strength.)

looks like you would mill the dohc caps too for the girdle to lay flat on it (you could alternatively shim it a 1/8 inch with washers to get over the hump but this is not optimal IMO)

You then either need 1/2 inch long main cap bolts, or if using arp studs a stud a little longer than stock (you would crank the nut down on the main cap/stud girdle assembly and then put on your windage (securing with another nut on top) The only difference with this would be the windage is now sitting 1/2 inch lower in the pan. (i dont see this to be an issue). Alternatively you could also place the windage on top of the girdle/cap and crank it all down using 1 nut but i think the first option is better.

Let me know what you guys think. I just picked up a DOHC last night with 284 tranny out of a lumina z34 (284 for sale...mostly complete less diff center) so i was experiementing today..

**Kevin_Johnson** · 06-20-2005, 01:52 AM

Re: RE: INTEREST IN BOTTOM END STUD GIRDLE?

Crank scrapers have been available for the 60 degree V6 (2.8, 3.1, 3.4) for a long time now but have generated very little interest. I know because I make them.

I make patterns for over three hundred engines now and the girdle request is similar to one I received for the Suzuki G10 and G13 engines. People wanted a girdle but didn't want to pay $1000+ for a CNC'd one-off. So, I spent a lot of time making a 1/2" steel girdle design that _retailed_ for under $100. Didn't sell even one. I assure you I spent over $1000 in my time and materials working on that project.

I am not trying to be a complainer but what I do want to get across is that vendors and manufacturers DO listen. But they listen even harder when the products are actually made available and then no-one buys them.

Just a caveat for both enthusiasts and potential vendors/manufacturers.

Kind regards,

Kevin Johnson
Ishihara-Johnson Crank Scrapers

Originally posted by sappyse107

If you can make this up for the gen 3s and the gen 2/DOHC motors, that would seriously rock. Ive been wanting something like this to appear for us along with crank scrapers. Im not sure how much lower you can go with the oil pan though once you start adding material to the bottom of the block. What about the oil pump? Will the pickup need to be modified for its depth in the pan?

**Kevin_Johnson** · 06-20-2005, 02:09 AM

Same thing I went through with the G10/G13 engine; same design issues with the main caps. One thing that I did find after testing actual girdles is that people should expect to line bore or at least hone their main bearing caps while the girdle is installed and torqued to specs. That is for designs using steel substantial enough to distort the block. You could go for a "stiffener" design that links the caps but with lighter material. OEM examples of this can be studied on the later model Jeep 4.0 straight six and the Suzuki G13B. Hope this info is helpful.

Kevin

Originally posted by farmerz24

ok, so i was able to fit the 3x00 caps onto the dohc block. the only issue here seems to be the bolthole spacing on the 3x00 pan (when putitng it onto the dohc to ultilize the side cap bolts). One side lines up almost alright (i put the pan over the caps to ensure pan was centered on the block) The other side no holes are showing. YOu would need to fill the holes on one side and redrill new 3x00 size holes as the bolts for the pan are much bigger. I see this as a do-able mod.

Also, for the windage to work and supply much support, the main caps of the 3x00 must be shaved down flat (ie. right now they are humped around the bearing). If we mill them flat we can then run the flat girdle across the cap and capture it for even more strength.)

looks like you would mill the dohc caps too for the girdle to lay flat on it (you could alternatively shim it a 1/8 inch with washers to get over the hump but this is not optimal IMO)

You then either need 1/2 inch long main cap bolts, or if using arp studs a stud a little longer than stock (you would crank the nut down on the main cap/stud girdle assembly and then put on your windage (securing with another nut on top) The only difference with this would be the windage is now sitting 1/2 inch lower in the pan. (i dont see this to be an issue). Alternatively you could also place the windage on top of the girdle/cap and crank it all down using 1 nut but i think the first option is better.

Let me know what you guys think. I just picked up a DOHC last night with 284 tranny out of a lumina z34 (284 for sale...mostly complete less diff center) so i was experiementing today..

**EspanolaGuitarista** · 06-21-2005, 02:55 PM

What is the deal with....

Alot of younger people own these cars. I think that apearance upgrades are higher on the list plus not too much experience working on cars. 60 degree engines are perfect for hotrods. It is a very stable design and good for high rpm's. Kevin_Johnson, do you have any crank scrapers for the 3100 engine. Are you part of the Johnson racing team out of Santa Maria. I used to go to school at AHC for automotive.

**Kevin_Johnson** · 06-21-2005, 04:10 PM

Re: What is the deal with....

Yes, the man across the street manufactures billet grilles for cars and drives a new Ferrari.

No, I am not that Kevin Johnson (of Johnson Racing?), just lowly Kevin of Florida.

I believe that Ben will be carrying these scrapers in his store and if you buy them through him you will help to support the website.

Originally posted by RichardEParson

Alot of younger people own these cars. I think that apearance upgrades are higher on the list plus not too much experience working on cars. 60 degree engines are perfect for hotrods. It is a very stable design and good for high rpm's. Kevin_Johnson, do you have any crank scrapers for the 3100 engine. Are you part of the Johnson racing team out of Santa Maria. I used to go to school at AHC for automotive.

**farmerz24** · 06-21-2005, 06:06 PM

RE: Re: What is the deal with....

KEvin - what would be the advantage to running lighter material other than weight savings? IF the thicker material distorts the block,(aswell as making it alot stiffer) , is this a bad thing or what? Or does this mean we need a line-hone to straighten things out again?

**farmerz24** · 06-21-2005, 06:06 PM

RE: Re: What is the deal with....

KEvin - what would be the advantage to running lighter material other than weight savings? IF the thicker material distorts the block,(aswell as making it alot stiffer) , is this a bad thing or what? Or does this mean we need a line-bore to straighten things out again?

**Kevin_Johnson** · 06-21-2005, 06:56 PM

Re: RE: Re: What is the deal with....

First consider what HP level you are looking for. Is the block already known to be stable at that power-level/rpm? If so, why make one in the first place? What sort of research have people on the list done? For example, I used to modify the Renault 807/821/843 series of engines. They were known to develop internal coolant leaks if revved past 7200 rpm under power. The block was so lightweight with removable bore liners that it flexed -- so it would be a good candidate for a girdle of some sort when used for racing.

Re advantages of thinner (usually): When you put thick things in the pan you can have issues with clearance -- in sometimes unexpected ways. You might hit the pan. You might be blocking oil flow in part of the pan (?). If you make the pan deeper in some areas will you need to extend your pickup... Will you need new fasteners? (Probably) Will the modified pan hit other parts of the chassis, etc.?

Any particular engine leaving the factory will have parts/dimensions that
fall in a given acceptable range (+/-). So the cap bolt pads might not be collectively planar and if the girdle is planar (flat) then it will push/pull on the different areas in different ways. This will distort the block, hence the need to rehone the bore for the main bearings (or at least to carefully check it). If you don't you will wear out some main bearings quicker than others (at the least -- it gets uglier from there). A thinner material will sacrificially distort itself in one axis but still provide strength in axes normal to that distortion (perpendicular). The caps will have resistance to linear movement or rocking along the central axis of the crank.

I have read that many modern engines with girdles or split blocks (like the Chrysler/DSM 420A in the Neon/Eclipse) have them for reasons of NVH (think that's the correct acronym). It quiets the engine down.

That's what pops into my head -- I am sure there are more issues.

Kevin

Originally posted by farmerz24

KEvin - what would be the advantage to running lighter material other than weight savings? IF the thicker material distorts the block,(aswell as making it alot stiffer) , is this a bad thing or what? Or does this mean we need a line-bore to straighten things out again?

**SappySE107** · 06-21-2005, 07:15 PM

RE: Re: RE: Re: What is the deal with....

The 420A engine is the one that got my interest in that type of setup. Honestly, I don't think we need the girdle so much as an "anything I can do, I will" attitude. I would look more the RFRE 2.5 (destroked 2.

and see what kind of bottom end work they did. At 750 hp, its more than anyone here is pushing. Also, it would be nice to get a DOHC motor to make power past 8000 so we can really test the RPM limit of the block...or at least know if its safe as it sits to go up to 8000.

The crank scraper however would be good to have for anyone rebuilding a motor. Im not sure if the ones you have will work on the gen 3 motors as well but I will find out I guess. Look forward to checking them out and adding them to the store

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INTEREST IN BOTTOM END STUD GIRDLE?

INTEREST IN BOTTOM END STUD GIRDLE?

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