block boring ???

[chucksterdesertdog]

This block(or getting a new Bowtie at more weight) is about the only way I see to get he engine weight down significantly.

So, before I abandon it and use it as a coffee table instead, I'd like to get some more ideas on it.

It was run at one time and didn't come apart since there are obvious wear marks in the cylinders.

If I ran a straight Crane mechanical roller lifter setup, would that make the main oiling safer?

It looks like the the oil filter port Y's off to the middle of the crank main+cam journal galley and the other branch goes up to the lifter galley.

I'd like to get as much info before I spend any money on machining.


Thanks for any more help any can provide.

[sharkey]

if you planned on using that block, you should have got the aluminum prototype gen 1 heads with it. aluminum block with cast iron heads isnt a great way to go. do you remember the caddy 4200 motor??? it was aluminum block, iron heads. they constantly leaked and blew head gaskets. the expantion of the block and heads is different, and doesnt realy work well.

if i remember right, that block had o-ringed sleeves and copper head gaskets. without those, you will have serious problems getting any head to seal.

[RacerX11]

This is no different than iron blocks and aluminum heads, with different expansion rates. I think he mentioned he is planning to use the 3.1 top end, I hope he was talking about the gen2 FWD aluminum heads. IMO, the 40-50 pounds aren't going to be worth the hassle required to make this block reliable.

You could probably drop weight cheaper out of the car itself, and use a more proven iron block. Or, if weight is such a critical issue, go with a lighter engine, such as a Quad4 or Ecotech. The 160HP goal is easily achievable in either of those engine with little work. Heck, you could even get 160HP out of a Duke

Marty

[Guest]

I will ask, when you mention "3.1 heads" from which generation and or vehicle are you refering to?

I will sound like a broken record here, but use later genIII heads and top end, the flow is wonderful, and light. The stock 3400 makes more than 160 HP, most agree with the better manifolds and lesser resticted exhaust and intakes systems 200+ HP is easily achievable. Headers will be even better.

[chucksterdesertdog]

I have never ever considered cast iron heads for this motor.
I guess I should have made that plain.
But that is not the issue!

I'll use auminum 3.1 or 3.4 heads and intakes, cast iron sleeves and 3.1 crank, 3.4 rods and pistons to get to 3.4 liter and 9.6:1.


The block is an honest 60 pounds lighter than a cast iron 3.1 block. We have weighted it and a 3.1
(Don't know the additional savings over a 3.4 block.)

THAT is why I am willing to do some further engineering with it if I have to make sure it lives at 160 to 220 HP.

I looked at the oiling again and I was wrong about it earlier.

The mains and cam don't get oiled off the same galley.

The mains get oiled off a dedicated galley.
Another galley oils the lifters and cam completely separately from the crank.
There is a Y or T that could be restricted to make sure more oil goes to the mains.
The other route goes to the lifters and top of the cam bearings.

The lifter galley is a removeable one on top of the cam bearings.


So my main question to you:

Is this a good oiling system as it is or do I need to modify it?

What is the best oil pump to use? I need some sort of distributor drive from the cam down to the oil pump.
Is that how all the later aluminum head motors drive the oil pump?


Thanks,
Chuckster

[TurboZ24]

that would be lighter than the newer aluminum block for sure, since it says it's only 47 lbs lighter than a stock iron block.

There are 3 oil pump choices, a stock 3.1 pump, the high flow pump (HV-95, 90 Turbo Grand Prix stock), or the 3.4 TDC oil pump.

All non-distributor 3.1's use a oil pump drive plug, yes.

[chucksterdesertdog]

Since higher volume oil pumps generate additional oil temp from recirculation unless the oil is actually going out to a higher volume load like extra cams (TDC case) or to a turbo (90 turbo GP case) , a stock 3.1 pump looks like the best choice here.

Will the 3.1 pump bolt up to what is probably an early 2.8 main cap? I remember something about an o-ring being incorported on later motors.

But since the block needs to be bored for a larger crank journal size anyway, perhaps replacing the main caps during the process would be prudent. I'd do the boring with the old caps to maybe less than a thou of desired, then finish with an align bore using new style larger caps.

That would take care of the pump o-ring mounting as well as facilitating going to a better rear main crank seal. I'd Still have to machine the block side for the late seals. That should be interesting!

Has anyone tried to bolt up the 3.1 front cover, oil pan, etc to an old 2.8 style block?


Thanks,
Chuckster

[dbtk2]

What I don't understand here is why you are set on getting 3.4L of displacement out of this engine. Why not just put a 3.1 crank/rods in it with like .030 over pistons with around 10:1 compression or something like that. Then you would have a 3.2L. Boring it out to a 3.4 is not going to make much more power or torque, and its going to hurt reliability a lot. Then put a 3X00 topend on it, P&P the heads if you like, maybe get them milled for higher compression, get a mild cam, an UD pulley, and some custom headers & 2.5" exhaust or ported manifolds & 2.5" exhaust and you should easily be making well over 160hp. Probably close to 200hp with that setup. A stock 3100 makes what, 165hp in its lowest hp form? A stock Gen II 3.1 makes 140. So 160hp should be simple.

Shawn

[sharkey]

a gen 1 and gen 2 block is pretty well the same. there are some minor changes to the block itself (im talking 85+ here, big main blocks), such as in 87 they added provisions in fwd cars for the crank position sensor. but, all things like timing covers, oil pans, and accessories are all the same for gen 1 and 2 motors.

[TheProfessor]

since i found out that you can use a gen3 block in a gen2 rebuild
i always suggest that people start out by getting a gen 3
that way you always have the option of switching to a custom groud roller cam (not a regrind)
later without having to worry about the sensor

[v6h.o.]

What I don't understand here is why you are set on getting 3.4L of displacement out of this engine. Why not just put a 3.1 crank/rods in it with like .030 over pistons with around 10:1 compression or something like that. Then you would have a 3.2L. Boring it out to a 3.4 is not going to make much more power or torque, and its going to hurt reliability a lot. Then put a 3X00 topend on it, P&P the heads if you like, maybe get them milled for higher compression, get a mild cam, an UD pulley, and some custom headers & 2.5" exhaust or ported manifolds & 2.5" exhaust and you should easily be making well over 160hp. Probably close to 200hp with that setup. A stock 3100 makes what, 165hp in its lowest hp form? A stock Gen II 3.1 makes 140. So 160hp should be simple.

Shawn

I agree, I am only running a .030over 3.1L block and am still pushing over 200HP at the crank.

kinda sad to hear that this prototype alum block (it is the only one in existance) is being modified and mucked around with like this. would have thought it was going to someone who would have collected or respected its relavance in the 60degreev6 history.. For the extra 13 pounds lighter this block is over the Bowtie Alum block, Its worth the extra benefits of the bowtie compared to the few pounds of extra weight.

since i found out that you can use a gen3 block in a gen2 rebuild
i always suggest that people start out by getting a gen 3
that way you always have the option of switching to a custom groud roller cam (not a regrind)
later without having to worry about the sensor

You can stick in a custom ground Roller camshaft into any of the older blocks. They just have to be Solid rollers.

[TheProfessor]

i was talking about using one without changing lifters

[chucksterdesertdog]

The block has treated aluminum bores, therefore the need for cast iron sleeves.
The aluminum is fairly thick at 0.272" (7mm)

If anyone has any real love for this old block, e-mail me
and we will talk $ so you have an opportunity to not be sad.

I paid JM what he was asking and I still consider it a good deal including
all added maching compared to what a new Alum bowtie would cost.

chuckster