300 hp N/A carb 2.8 V6 engine

[veekuusi]

Did you do any of the same tests on the exhaust ports?

No tests on the exhaust ports.

The new 3100 heads use Fel-Pro 98004 intake gaskets.
They are some 3 mm smaller on the top of the intake ports than Fel-Pro
98003 gaskets that was used earlier with the 3400 heads..
The major flow is there on the upper part of the port.

[1QUICKHATCH]

Did you do any of the same tests on the exhaust ports?

[veekuusi]

We cheched with pitot-tube , what limits the flow in the intake channel.
The pencil is pointed to the area where the blockade is.
There the flow is maximum.



And there is a wide area just before the intake valve in the intake channel.
You could imagine , that is good for the flow.
But we noticed vice versa.
There is just standing air, no flow at all.
We think that GM engineers designed this engine a "lean burn engine".
That wide area is good in the low rpm area.
It makes the air spin.
But in the 5000-8000 rpm area, there is no use for that widening. Air just goes straight to
the cylinder.



There is no great importance , if the heads flow 318 hp or 337 hp.
I am winning or losing the races despite of the flow nimbers.
So lets forget this argument and carry on .....
I try to get the heads together and install them to the block this weekend.

[SappySE107]

Ok.

It doesn't really matter how anyone reads my email. Sorry I didn't say "for your setup, with its 2.8 liters of displacement, and specific cam specs, and number of carbs, etc etc, I would use the stage 2 heads". I should have realized everyone would read everything I say and be certain to systematically detail every observation and nuance to the job I am doing. I am terribly sorry for everything I have done to all of you regarding this thread and Ari's heads.

That's not how I read Will's reply at all...

[SappySE107]

How many carbed engines have you helped set up?

"Stage 2 for use with a carb" just comes off like "These heads work best when used with a cam." What carb? 350 CFM? 750 CFM? 4 barrel? Six pack? Lift & duration on the cam? Max acceptable valve size?
If this and much more information wasn't exchanged, there is zero chance the customer will get what he wants.

You are quoting a private email message between myself and Ari, and acting like we are advertising the stage 2 heads for carbs on our site.

[34blazer]

How many carbed engines have you helped set up?

"Stage 2 for use with a carb" just comes off like "These heads work best when used with a cam." What carb? 350 CFM? 750 CFM? 4 barrel? Six pack? Lift & duration on the cam? Max acceptable valve size?
If this and much more information wasn't exchanged, there is zero chance the customer will get what he wants.

The goals for this engine has been laid out for the past few years. The combination is the same and all of us who have been following the progress know some of the restrictions imposed by the class Ari is racing in. The cam specs and carbs are also in this(or the prior) thread. So basically this is a high rpm, max effort type engine, IMO. Not disagreeing with you Will, but I am pointing out what the goals and expectations were. Even if I didn't read any of the content of this thread, I would have at least saw the title of this thread(considering the owner of the business the owner of this site) and would have been tipped off by the "300hp NA 2.8" title. I'd say to myself, "This guy wants a set of heads, and he has a 300hp goal, these heads will need XXX work done to even come close to achieving his goal. I'd better get some specifics on his combo..."

[Will'sFiero]

How many carbed engines have you helped set up?

"Stage 2 for use with a carb" just comes off like "These heads work best when used with a cam." What carb? 350 CFM? 750 CFM? 4 barrel? Six pack? Lift & duration on the cam? Max acceptable valve size?
If this and much more information wasn't exchanged, there is zero chance the customer will get what he wants.

[SappySE107]

"Could you give me the price for a pair of “stage-3 3400 cylinder heads”.
With Manley race valves but with out springs and retainers.
And the most important thing, with 7/16” rocker arm bolt threads.
The thread has to be opened to bigger rocker studs, and helicoil threads has
to be done.
I have done the 7/16” threads my self here to earlier heads, it is not so easy.
Therefore I prefer to make first the 7/16” threads and after that if the work has been
succesfully, ported the heads.
Maybe a professional machine shop like you, has more experience with the threads."

That is the original email sent to Wot Tech ,10-24-2015.
And I expected to get best 3400 heads .
But now it seems that I have got a bad flowing set of 3100 heads.

This is where I am coming from with the stage 3 heads. You quoted me saying that stage 2 is better for the velocity. You took a die grinder and removed at least 3 times as much material as we had done. That to me says you wanted stage 3 and were not concerned with velocity.

[3400-95-Modified]

Yes that is how I also read it, Ben stated that Stage 2 would be ideal for carb, but you flowed them and you don't agree or like the flow numbers so you decided to modify them. He was stating that he would have been willing to re-do them at the stage 3 porting after you identified your disapproval with the stage 2 flow numbers. Obviously all of this is out the window now because of what you did to them.

I think the big problem here is basic communication loss and it could be greatly due to the language barrier... I think if I had a set of numbers in my head for flow characteristics then I would have identified that to the seller in the beginning to make sure he could validate his work and ensure he could hit those numbers. But if you don't tell the buyer what your looking for in concrete numbers then you can't complain when you get something that isn't quite what you were wanting.

[veekuusi]

Maybe its a translation issue because this has nothing to do with an email. The heads, as you got them, could have been sent back and done to our stage 3 port spec. Not any more.

Do not worry , I am not going to send back to you.
But the point was , why the stage-3 spec because in the email you say , the stage-2 is ideal
for a carb engine.
At least , that is how I understood the message.

[SappySE107]

Maybe its a translation issue because this has nothing to do with an email. The heads, as you got them, could have been sent back and done to our stage 3 port spec. Not any more.

[veekuusi]

"Had you wanted stage 3, it was on the table as the heads were when you received them"

I do not understand what you mean by saying that.
This is a copy of the original email you sent me:

Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 6:30 PM
>>>>>> To: Ari Rajamäki
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Stage 2/3 3400 cylinder heads
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, I thought John was replying already and i see now that we have
>>>>>> not responded at all. We are working on the 10mm time sert setup
>>>>>> designed for the stock rockers, but you wouldn't need the pedestals.
>>>>>> We
>>>>>> can get the setup for 7/16 for your setup but I don't know how much
>>>>>> labor is involved yet to give you a price on that. We can do stage 2
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> stage 3 porting. For a carb, I would guess the stage 2 with its
>>>>>> improved velocity over stage 3 is going to be ideal. We would be
>>>>>> sourcing the heads as well? Machined, ported, Manley valves, ready
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> assemble with your springs and rockers is $1385 plus the rocker arm
>>>>>> holes for 7/16. We are booked until 2016, so late January would be
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> estimated finish time as of right now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben Phelps
>>>>>> WOT-Tech

Maybe he didn't realize they would be small port 3100 heads since there are 3100 heads that are basically 3400 heads...?

From what Veekuusi has said about customs and shipping in Finland it seems that there would likely need a month or so just to deal with that. I'm sure you can understand him being gun shy for sending them back when the first set took longer than expected to get to him, due to all circumstances involved. I wouldn't want to ship something across border from Canada to the US under the same pretences due to the unsurity of shipping in and of itself let alone how long or little time it would take to rectify the issue.

This is one of the reasons I do my own work or deal locally whenever possible, I just hate dealing with shipping sometimes.

Still interested to see how these heads do on Veekuusi's engine. It's a very different and interesting combination that I've thought was great from the first time he posted about it.

[SappySE107]

The only option? The sad part of this is, you went to the public to throw shade on wot-tech rather than contact me to discuss what you saw. Now that I am in Florida again, and have a set of heads that were done at the same time, I can clearly see why the exhaust didn't flow well. They used a 1 angle cutter and made as very wide cut. Of course this killed the flow. The intake said was the throat diameter as you pointed out. So, why would it take that long for the heads to come back, us to fix the valve job, and send them back? 2 weeks. Again, very much my fault for sending them out like that. Had you brought this up to me, this could have been sorted out easily. Paying for shipping both ways and the machine work, even new seats if necessary, beats the hell out of dealing with this on my forum.

Telling me my only option is to send you another set of heads is just not how this business works. Send us the heads back in the condition we sent them and we will fix or replace them. Otherwise, you own them. You were aware they were stage 2 ported, and 3100 heads, before they were shipped. You had ample time to make that decision and chose to say nothing. You also knew this before you hacked everything up. There is no reason those heads couldn't be at the same peak potential of a set of 3400 heads. Just more work, which was done other than the valve seat/throat measurements. That was my mistake for not flow testing and seeing the restriction.

Had you wanted stage 3, it was on the table as the heads were when you received them.

Also, we have flow sheets showing the difference in heads. If you are really going to say that this is the clear and decisive difference between 3100 heads and 3400 heads or wot-tech vs stock, then so be it. Our cars are winning races and setting track records so it all depends on what part of the business you look at. Learn from mistakes, and move on when there is nothing left to do. As of now, this part of Ari's build thread is over. Lets see it run.