262's 85 Fiero SE LX9 F23 swap thread lots of pics

[SappySE107]

are you running meth or something that requires a 2nd fuel table? Also, you are running a variable pressure fuel pump? I haven't had to deal with any of the issues you are having. Dead time I think is .6 - .8 ms for the 28# injectors. I think its mostly for idle quality to fine tune it but being way out is going to make it so you have very little of the valve opening time to be throwing fuel in there. The lower the delay, the better until you tell its faster than it is, and then you lose some fuel capability there as well.

Im running no correction, no offset table for AFR control. Have you tried that? Im not sure if a turbo fucks with that but NA it has worked great.

[ericjon262]

The current issue has nothing to do with the delay tables, the method to determine the delays was just a consequence of trying to dial in dead times. I've found multiple sets of data that state what my dead times should be, and for some reason, I'm not having fueling match target AFR in an expected manner. I've attempted to dial in dead times from multiple points on multiple occasions using multiple methods and analysis'. at this point, I know the injectors are 10+ years old, and have absolutely minimal run time, and frequently have had static ethanol fuel in them for months at a time, it's very possible that the injectors dirty, clogged, opening and shutting at different rates, ect. a new set of injectors, with datasheets direct from the manufacturer will hopefully solve all of my current issues, and allow me to make big steps in dialing in closed loop fueling, and a proper VE table that accurately represents the engine's VE.

the delay table isn't a issue, it's just a feature of the MS3 that I intend to employ. The sole purpose of the 2nd fuel table in my case, is to create data points to use to fill the delay table by creating stepped changes in AFR that can be correlated to a stepped change in PW. once I have enough data to generate a table, it will improve closed loop fueling response, as the MS3 will have a better idea of where to make corrections, and once the table is filled, will revert to one fuel table, unless I later have a need for two. The car is running open loop now, with no correction, longer drives through varying conditions will benefit from closed loop fueling.

[SappySE107]

I think the end result for me is to tune it manually with datalogs so I can find the steady state values rather than a graph of averages or transition numbers using probably bad data for AE and DE. That or have someone tune and someone drive. Auto tune is rough at best from my experience. It should idle great at 14:1 as well.

[ericjon262]

my latest tune revision has 14:1 at idle, it sounds pretty gnarly if I lean it out a bit though.

The new injectors are in, and seem to have made a difference. my fuel pressure is somehow off by about 6 PSI now though... I'll need to adjust it back down before getting too far along with the tune. I checked a log from a couple days ago, it was correct last time I logged the car, I must have done something installing the new injectors.

[ericjon262]

Finally made it to the track

First run was about 8 PSI and a lean on the big end, 2nd run was 10 PSI, and closer to a safe AFR. there's still a ton left in it, even at this boost level.

https://youtu.be/N9kgq1Ecdcg

https://youtu.be/NnyFvMRTnKo

[SappySE107]

Didn't know you had video

[ericjon262]

Didn't know you had video

I sure did, hopefully my next trip will be a bit more thrilling, there's no way I'll go lean once this is installed:

originally, I planned on making the bolt ring stay inside the tank and not weld on the tank, I found that making a weld on ring was easier, and probably a better bet. I made the weld on ring, as well as some nickel acetate, after the ring was finished, I dunked it in the acetate, applied a small current, and nickel plated the bare steel to hopefully keep it from rusting.



I opened the hole up in the top of the tank, and welded it in. The hole was about 135mm



The new top hat fully machined



I soldered in the pump discharge tube, and a ground stud that goes all the way through.





I cut the rest of the parts on the plasma cutter.



After that, I installed the return, and the all thread that would actually hold the pumps in place, and test fit everything.





The into the nickel with the top hat, I wasnt' worried about the tubes or all thread, because the tubes are stainless, and the all thread was zinc plated, so both of those should fair ok from a corrosion standpoint without the nickel plating.



Then I bent the tubes to fit the car.



I soldered the tubes in, wired everything up, and installed it on the tank. what's left? I have compression fittings for the tubes to adapt them to the rest of the fuel system, I also need to made some blocks to go between the tank and the tubes to adequately support them and not stress the solder joints. I'm planning on moving the flexfuel sensor to be closer to the tank/fuel filter, and not on the fuel rail, as well as installing a set of stainless LX9 fuel rails.



Parts used:

https://www.racetronix.biz/p/double-pump-coupler-6-orb-red/dpc-g6

https://www.racetronix.biz/p/universal-bulkhead-wiring-system-4-way/bcws-001

https://www.highflowfuel.com/quantum-performance-340lph-e85-intank-fuel-pump-kit-for-buick-roadmaster-efi-1994-1996-replaces-11569/

https://www.racetronix.biz/p/connector-set-in-tank-pumps-16-14ga/rcs-001

and the appropriate fittings.

Some notes about the nickel plating, I learned about this through a few youtube videos, Turbo_V6 zinc plated a trigger wheel, while looking for a few other videos on zinc, I found nickel was also doable.

Turbo_V6's zinc plating video:

https://youtu.be/O486S9CGhgM

and a helpful nickle plating video:

https://youtu.be/1Uy7QkLI8yU

My results were hit and miss, some parts turned out great, others not so much, I think my acetate may be contaminated with zinc, as some of my parts came out with a very dark finish, and the zinc plated all thread that was exposed to the acetate also turned black. if there's a next time for this, I'll do a few things slightly different:

1. insulate parts that don't need plating, this should help focus the plating on that parts that need it
2. attempt to arrange the anode(s) in such a manner that they present themselves to the entire part, or the largest surface area of the part.
3. increase the number of anodes, so that they surround the part and and more of the part is equidistant to a anode,
4. install a pump to circulate the acetate, and maybe a small filter to prevent solids that come off the anodes from getting to the part to be plated.
5. get a parts tumbler to polish small parts prior to plating, I suspect some of my parts may have had surface contaminants which caused discoloration.
6. acid dip parts prior to plating, which should further help with stripping contaminants.

I'm confident my parts are now corrosion resistant, as can be seen in one of the pictures of the top hat after soldering in the ground stud and the pump discharge pipe, the flux used to solder the parts in cause the steel to rust very quickly, while soldering in the tubes on the outside of the sender, the top hat did not rust.

[dbral]

Love this kind of stuff. Nice skill set/engineering and the nickle plating rabbit hole is awesome. Probably a stupid question. i can't see your whole pump set up. Do you have some way of preventing the pumps from possibly over time loosening and twisting in their clamp-downs to prevent the plastic outlet(s) from shearing or cracking? Startup torque is surprising to me on those pumps

[SappySE107]

I didn't understand the crazy number of holes from the pump setup until I saw you welded in a ring with the threads to screw those all in. Stock is a twist seal setup right? You can tell I do a lot of fuel pumps:P Are there any decent sized fuel cells that would fit your tank location? Im just curious about this amount of work and keeping it internal vs either a custom made fuel cell and an external pump.

[ericjon262]

I didn't understand the crazy number of holes from the pump setup until I saw you welded in a ring with the threads to screw those all in. Stock is a twist seal setup right? You can tell I do a lot of fuel pumps:P Are there any decent sized fuel cells that would fit your tank location? Im just curious about this amount of work and keeping it internal vs either a custom made fuel cell and an external pump.

stock uses a locking ring to secure the sender in place, there really aren't many options for a fuel tank other than stock unless I put it somewhere I don't want it, and then have a bunch of dead space under the car too. I prefer in tank pumps for a few reasons, pumps really don't like sucking, and pumps like to be cool. With the pump submerged in fuel, the fuel keeps it cool, and it doesn't have to suck the fuel, because it's surrounded by it.

[ericjon262]

The new fuel system has been working great! the car pulls really hard, and I've been working on the tune quite a bit more.

as noted earlier in this thread, my current engine has an unacceptable amount of metal in the oil, which means I should be working towards a viable replacement engine.


I had 2 main options for a new engine, option one, start building a 3.9, honestly, to me this is the end goal that I eventually want. The killer downside to the 3.9 is that I will need to build a new hotside, and new engine mounts to actually install it in the car, along with wiring and plumbing changes, not something that can eb done quickly in an afternoon.

option 2, build the LX9 I have in parts in the garage. originally, i thought I was going to run into head gasket problems with that engine because the bore diameter was larger than the off the shelf cometic gaskets, I recently learned cometic can make bigger bore gaskets no fuss. the other issue, was that the windage tray wasn't going to directly fit this engine, because it has aftermarket H beam rods, which means I need to make a proper windage try for it.


the first issue with the windage try is mounting it. Stock has a stud on top of the main cap bolts, I have ARP main studs, so I can't easily put a stud on a stud, and the nuts that came with the studs are 1/2" 12 point, without much room at all for the tray to sit on. I've found some nuts that will fit the studs, and have way bigger heads than the nuts that came with them (11/16" 6 point vs 1/2" 12 point) next, I'll need to start actually fabricating the tray.


I was cleaning up my block, and getting it ready for main bearing and the crank to go in, and I noticed a burr on the oil pan rail, while it's probably not worth anything from a power standpoint, I'm trying to do whatever I can to improve oil control for this engine, this single bur led me to deburring all sorts of stuff in the crankcase, and then re cleaning everything...




I ended up deburring the entire oil pan rail, all the main journals, and the main bearing caps, which should help prevent oil from sticking to those portions of the crankcase, and improve oil drainage back to the pain.

Right now, I'm working towards option 2. last week, I assembled the short block, and have been painstakingly going over camshafts trying to get the best cam I can for it.


I assembled the short block, minus the cam, which I obviously don't have. I really don't want to end up in the situation I did a few years ago, and have to cut valve reliefs in the pistons again, so picking the cam needs to be done very carefully, and a ton of measurements taken. tonight, I determined my method for checking piston to valve clearance without the cam, or even a head on the engine, this took a ton of figuring, so I'd like to run it by everyone and make sure my head is on right.

The comp master lobe catalog lists duration at 3 points, in crankshaft degrees.

.006" (advertised duration) .050" and .200" these figures are all based on lift of the tappet. I drew two circles in CAD, and then added lines for each duration event, the durations were divided by two to get camshaft degrees. then I extended the lines by their respective tappet lifts and came up with a drawing that looked like this:



after that, I added two additional lines, one for TDC, and one for 10 degrees BTDC for each lobe. I assumed the points between each duration step were linear, which may not be true, but looking at the drawings, the points are fairly close together and look quite a bit like I would expect a cam lobe to look like. I think this is an adequate assumption for what I'm doing here. thoughts?



at the intersections of the TDC and 10 BTDC lines, I placed points, and measured the distance between them, in the case of this lobe, the points were

.045" and .105" of tappet lift .072" and .168" of theoretical valve lift

and for the other lobe

.073" and .147" of tappet lift .117" and .236" of theoretical valve lift

the next step, which I'll probably do tomorrow, will be to install a degree wheel on the engine, and measure how far the pistons are in the hole at each point, and, how deep each valve is recessed into the head. if the combined depth is less than the above measurements, with a safety factor, then I'll go ahead and order a cam with these lobes ground and send it. alternatively, if the exhaust valves end up too close, I can also advance the cam some if need be to gain more clearance as my timing set has more than one keyway cut into it. I could also get a cam with less duration too, but what's the fun in that?

it's also worth mentioning that these are all static tappet lift measurements, and being a hydraulic cam, the lifter may absorb some of that duration and increase clearance. That being said, I have no intention on using that assumption at all in this situation, I would rather assume the valve is open more than it ever actually would be.