Exhaust Collector Discussion

[HOYS]

I didn't know this was WOT-Tech.com...

[bszopi]

I didn't know this was WOT-Tech.com...

What does that have to do with what Ben is saying?

[TGP37]

in my years of experience people who are this way are more likely to abandon a project before its ever even road worthy.


Also if i may, for being a leading figure in this community you awfully hostile to people who are engaged in a friendly discussion. I know we are on different sides of the discussion, but if you are going to involve yourself at least take the hostility down a few notches and try to at least engage me into being open minded. I think you have the wrong idea of my intentions or demeanor. I know i am a total asshole and i am stubborn, but i am also very reasonable and do try to be respectful. dislike my posts with me dumbing down and what not i get that, but be respectful and try to be constructive. That is what makes me not like your posts. they are more often then not attempts at cheap zings rather then a good counter point. Your partner joined in the convo and i actually expected hostility from him as well, but he was welcoming and brought up a good point.

omg, Sappy is not hostile...lol

And how can you try to be respectful and constructive when you are insisting that I do things quicker, cheaper and easier? If you were truly respectful you would understand my pursuits, not that it is required as I will continue on w/ life, but you need to draw a line buddy. It's not like you are trying to talk me out of a "stupid" modification.

So here is the deal. I will continue to build these collectors and test them the best I can. At this point I don't care what you say about that. I am a leader, not a follower.

On that note, I decided on two collectors to build. Then flow test each one as best I can.

I am going to rig a spare MAP sensor to the entrance of 1 primary, cap the other and drive compressed air threw the other yet. A better flowing collector should show a greater reduction in pressure when the compressed air is shot through. That is the goal, and we'll see just how much of the Venturi Effect plays in.



"in my years of experience people who are this way are more likely to abandon a project before its ever even road worthy. "

Actually, it is the other way around. You NEED math for such a build. Deck height, dynamic pressures, cam grinds, turbo ratios, compressor maps, push rod length, TDC, piston ring end gap, etc. And people who just toss parts on with out regard to specs/math will hit a problem spot when they go to drive it. These people are more likely to ditch a project.

Such a disregard for math is completely asinine.

[slw240sx]

If my fab guy joined a competitors website/forum and told them he didn't care about doing the best he could...id fire him. Instantly.

well i guess its a good thing i do not work for you or anyone for that matter... again great addition to this thread here! bravo! your a wealth of information and experience when it comes to turbo setups...
This is the reason these threads go from productive to counterproductive. Its not just me and my opposite side in a discussion because we could keep the discussion moving and learn from each others point of views. its the banter from outside parties that have no need to input information or lack there of. Ben have you built a turbo car? one? have you built hundreds? im not talking building parts then selling them. i am talking from conception to completion? There is a lot learned from the experience of real world hands on building . We have plenty of that to go around...

We do our math here at my shop, just not to the extent of what you guys believe is utterly important. I am talking about VE calcs, comparing turbo maps, and looking over cam specs. all this is done in our shop, we do calculate the setups to a extent. having to do calculations on fuel pump flow and injector flow at different pressures and voltages because if we want to make a little 2L turbo motor go from 175 to 600hp you can guess, but you better have a good idea of what your looking at or else your going to be sending someones hard earned cash to its death when it comes dyno time. our current build that we have in the shop now is that very 2L aluminum blocked motor getting worked to 500-600hp. we have in the last few weeks crunched plenty of numbers to come up with the correct cams, the correct turbo, the correct fuel system, the internals and the correct electronics all of which will allow us to make this power safely.
Dont assume i am just some dumbass that half asses and rigs shit, because that i am not. you can look at my work and see that there is thought behind it and skills to execute it.

[slw240sx]

omg, Sappy is not hostile...lol

And how can you try to be respectful and constructive when you are insisting that I do things quicker, cheaper and easier? If you were truly respectful you would understand my pursuits, not that it is required as I will continue on w/ life, but you need to draw a line buddy. It's not like you are trying to talk me out of a "stupid" modification.

In now way have i meant disrespect in my counter argument. debates are debates, you look and speak from your point of view , and i from mine. do i find your pursuit in the miniscule details a little over the top? yes i do, completely. How ever that is your decision , my side of the debate was more of an attempt to get you to not worry so much over those details because in my personal experience your not going to see worth wild gains in there, how ever you must figure that out for yourself as everyone as dedicated to a certain idea will. I would much rather see enthusiast getting their hands dirty and building and testing aka driving their setups then hunched over a computer for weeks looking at virtual results and measurements. how ever what i forgot in my argument was that some people do find that fascinating and enjoy that part of the build as much as i enjoy welding and cutting and talking shit to people. so i do have to respect your point of view and just agree to disagree on our methods of choice.

So here is the deal. I will continue to build these collectors and test them the best I can. At this point I don't care what you say about that. I am a leader, not a follower.

On that note, I decided on two collectors to build. Then flow test each one as best I can.

I am going to rig a spare MAP sensor to the entrance of 1 primary, cap the other and drive compressed air threw the other yet. A better flowing collector should show a greater reduction in pressure when the compressed air is shot through. That is the goal, and we'll see just how much of the Venturi Effect plays in.

go for it! the results will be interesting. how would you feel if i offered to send you one of our collectors to test? I think it would be a great comparison to look at for your test results



"in my years of experience people who are this way are more likely to abandon a project before its ever even road worthy. "

Actually, it is the other way around. You NEED math for such a build. Deck height, dynamic pressures, cam grinds, turbo ratios, compressor maps, push rod length, TDC, piston ring end gap, etc. And people who just toss parts on with out regard to specs/math will hit a problem spot when they go to drive it. These people are more likely to ditch a project.

IMO that amount of math is not needed. the engineers that designed the power plant did all that math for you. you really don't need to go that in depth. especially with a stock block turbo kit build.
if you were to change the stroke, the bore size, then you start getting into needing to really doing your calculations, but the majority of builds never go that far into things. If i were doing a build that required a custom motor, custom cams i would sit down with someone versed in these motors and go over things you listed, but i will never build a 60deg motor to that extent because i really am not in the market to build the cars just the parts. If milzy ever stopped producing the turbo stuff likely i would never make another 3400 kit again unless a customer requested it.


Such a disregard for math is completely asinine.

its not like i am completely blindly throwing parts at a car... i have been doing this for over 5 years, i do know what i am doing, or else i would have never made it this far. i started toying with turbo cars back in 02 in my garage with a couple of friends and grew from that. the other friend i started with is a math geek and he was into the numbers just like you are.

[HOYS]

Coming from Jon who has designed, built, tested, and mass produced turbo kits that were regarded as some of the best out there for some cars...he is worth a listen.

He is not saying you shouldn't make collectors...but your time, effort, and money could be used for something else more productive. If this was high dollar racing where every single HP was worth the time to get it, you would have no problems. This is a forum about an engine that came in mini-vans, grocery getters, and that's about it.

Viper forums? You make those collectors all day.

[NateD4]

I'll inject some of my 0.02$ into the mix.

There seems to be a lot of partial information floating around here.

But the experienced are largely right. You don't need perfect to make power with boost.

What you really need to do is define your mission. Then realize that the operating range you are targeting might be too wide for optimizations.

NASCAR spends time chasing renege of HP because they are rule bound. Most back yard builders aren't.

You can calculate until you turn colors, however you'll discover your math is only 80% accurate 80% of the time.
-----------
Turbos require back pressure to operate so your manifold isn't exposed to atmospheric pressure. Additionally the turbine inlet is a nozzle designed to accelerate the pressure in the manifold into kinetic energy (think total pressure and static pressures).

The requirements are very different from a NA manifold.

[slw240sx]

Coming from Jon who has designed, built, tested, and mass produced turbo kits that were regarded as some of the best out there for some cars...he is worth a listen.

He is not saying you shouldn't make collectors...but your time, effort, and money could be used for something else more productive. If this was high dollar racing where every single HP was worth the time to get it, you would have no problems. This is a forum about an engine that came in mini-vans, grocery getters, and that's about it.

Viper forums? You make those collectors all day.

actually if you do a little digging you will see some of the work that has been done by respectable viper shops is so so to border line hack work. there are plenty of horror stories about kits that are poorly built coming from respected shops in that market.

[slw240sx]

I'll inject some of my 0.02$ into the mix.

There seems to be a lot of partial information floating around here.

But the experienced are largely right. You don't need perfect to make power with boost.

What you really need to do is define your mission. Then realize that the operating range you are targeting might be too wide for optimizations.

NASCAR spends time chasing renege of HP because they are rule bound. Most back yard builders aren't.

You can calculate until you turn colors, however you'll discover your math is only 80% accurate 80% of the time.
-----------
Turbos require back pressure to operate so your manifold isn't exposed to atmospheric pressure. Additionally the turbine inlet is a nozzle designed to accelerate the pressure in the manifold into kinetic energy (think total pressure and static pressures).

The requirements are very different from a NA manifold.

thank you, very well stated.

[ForcedFirebird]

in my years of experience people who are this way are more likely to abandon a project before its ever even road worthy.


Also if i may, for being a leading figure in this community you awfully hostile to people who are engaged in a friendly discussion. I know we are on different sides of the discussion, but if you are going to involve yourself at least take the hostility down a few notches and try to at least engage me into being open minded. I think you have the wrong idea of my intentions or demeanor. I know i am a total asshole and i am stubborn, but i am also very reasonable and do try to be respectful. dislike my posts with me dumbing down and what not i get that, but be respectful and try to be constructive. That is what makes me not like your posts. they are more often then not attempts at cheap zings rather then a good counter point. Your partner joined in the convo and i actually expected hostility from him as well, but he was welcoming and brought up a good point.

Actually it's because your first post was decent, and while yes you are being civil, which I much appreciate, you are telling members of this community wrong information. Sure, you can use OBX turbo headers or make them from thin steel and make good power, but they won't hold a candle to anything we build. Are we on different sides of the coin? yes. Our customers buy from us because they know they will get the best and we experiment on a daily basis to make sure we test part fitment, put a fair price tag on it, and we are lightning fast with customer service.

We don't build pie cut systems, you mentioned we are wasting our time "doing math" and "overbuilding collectors" when in reality, how much more time is wasted welding little pcs of pipe together when we are making/designing proper systems and installing them properly.

You guys may think we are your competitors, when in reality our current competitors we are after are Metric Mechanic, 666fab and revshift as far as turbo manifolds and fabrication go.

We are starting to shy away from the young crowd that's "boosted to 25psi, yo, t28 turbo FTMFW" and dealing with clients that are building a whole package. If you think we are talking trash, go to the news stand and buy Oct issue of Grassroots Motorsports Magazine, open up to page 68 and look at our smiling faces.

Before you attack Ben about ho many turbo kits he built, I don't think it's any. Does that matter? No. That's not what he does. Let's ask your secretary, your parts delivery guy, your shipper, your head porter, your purchaser, your engine builder, or your tuner how many turbo kits they fabricated. Might as well be asking Shirley Temple how many mob bosses she knocked off.

[SappySE107]

This is a forum about an engine that came in mini-vans, grocery getters, and that's about it.

You don't even know your 60V6 history.

[ForcedFirebird]

Coming from Jon who has designed, built, tested, and mass produced turbo kits that were regarded as some of the best out there for some cars...he is worth a listen.

He is not saying you shouldn't make collectors...but your time, effort, and money could be used for something else more productive. If this was high dollar racing where every single HP was worth the time to get it, you would have no problems. This is a forum about an engine that came in mini-vans, grocery getters, and that's about it.

Viper forums? You make those collectors all day.

FOR RELEASE: 2005-04-12

CONTACTS

Matt Hartford Looking To Set High Standard With GM High Feature V6 Engine




Pro RWD Chevy Cavalier




LAS VEGAS, April 12, 2005 - Matt Hartford arrived in West Palm Beach for the NHRA Southeast Sport Compact Nationals on April 2 looking to establish a solid foundation in his quest for the 2005 Pro RWD title. Over the winter, crew chief Mylon Keasler focused on improving the performance and reliability of the twin-turbo, GM High Feature V6 engine. Now Hartford's Chevy Cavalier appears to be on pace for a run at this year's Summit Racing Equipment Sport Compact championship. During the third and final round of qualifying for the Southeast Nationals, Hartford posted a career-best e.t. and speed stopping the clocks with an astounding 6.554 second run at 212.71 mph. That provided the 33-year-old Phoenix resident with his first NHRA top qualifying spot of the season and a solid beachhead heading into this weekend's SummitRacing.com Nationals at Las Vegas Motor Speedway. The question now becomes, just how quick and fast can Hartford's Chevrolet go?



This is Hartford's fourth year in the NHRA Sport Compact series. In 2002 he won the series championship in the former Modified category after winning national events at Woodburn (Ore.), Sonoma (Calif.), and Englishtown (N.J.), collecting a runner-up at Pomona (Calif.) and earning low qualifying honors twice. Hartford entered the Pro RWD category in 2003, and competed with a four-cylinder engine in a predominately six-cylinder class. He captured a victory at Sonoma and posted a runner-up at Atco (N.J.) for a sixth-place points finish. The move in 2004 to the new GM High Feature V6 began paying dividends in the late summer when Hartford defeated Abel Ibarra in the finals at Dallas, and with Stephan Papadakis, Hartford was part of the first sub-6.60-second Pro RWD side-by-side pass at Englishtown.



The performance of the Summit Racing Chevrolet and the GM High Feature V6 during the last year has improved significantly. "There are parallels with what we're doing with the GM High-Feature V6 and what was done 50 years ago when guys were trying to race the small-block Chevy. Today you can put together a small-block Chevy that will produce a thousand horsepower and run for 100,000 miles. But back in 1955, and the first couple of years that it came out, it wasn't that way because the knowledge level wasn't there yet, the parts availability wasn't there and there was still work to find its full potential. With the GM High-Feature V6, it's only been three years since it was just a design on a sheet of paper. Obviously, we're stressing this engine considerably more than the GM engineers who built the production model ever thought possible. We're making over 1700 horsepower with 202 cubic inches and we're using so many factory parts that unfortunately we've pushed them beyond their limits. When we do, the GM engineers either make us a better part or we go to an aftermarket part, and this all takes time. It takes trial and error, and the only way to find the next weak link is to stress the engine even more. Now we're running consistent 6.50s at about any track we go to regardless of the surface condition. We ran 6.50s at Phoenix and we ran 6.50s at Moroso. We feel we have abundant, consistent power and now we're looking to improve reliability, and that's what we'll be working on this year."



GM Powertrain and their involvement in making the High-Feature V6 the state-of-the-art engine in Pro RWD. "We're on the phone with GM no less than three hours a day, seven days a week. It is an ongoing conversation about what we're working on, what they're working on and how we can best apply what we've learned. Brent Ingraham from GM is at every race for on-site assistance. Their involvement and commitment has been tremendous and will go a long way toward making the GM High Feature V6 a great race engine."



The way the Summit Racing Chevrolet has run at the first two races must have you very excited about the rest of the season. "We certainly feel we have one of the most competitive teams in Pro RWD just from the standpoint that we know we can make horsepower. We also don't mind working 23 hours a day if that's what it takes to be successful. We don't have any qualms about staying up all night working on our stuff, and if we need to do an engine change between rounds, or at midnight following a final Saturday qualifying session like we did at West Palm, then that's what we do. I guess we don't know any better. We don't know that at seven o'clock or eight o'clock you're supposed to pack up and go have dinner, that's not the way we think. We can back our car down to run 6.70s and not hurt parts, but we're not going to the track to run 6.70s. We're either going to win the race, learn something in the process or both. We learned something in West Palm Beach. We had a failure, we know what it was and we're confident it won't happen again. Our car was on a solid 6.50 pass when we had an issue in the first round of eliminations. It's discouraging, it is heartbreaking, but we learned something from it. It also showed everybody else that along with the horsepower, we know how to adapt and that will serve us well throughout the season."



How long have you been with Total Seal? "About seven and a half years. Total Seal supplies about 95 percent of the high-end race programs including 41 of the 43 Nextel Cup Cars, almost all of the NHRA Pro Stock teams run our product, all of the IRL teams and a lot of F1 teams. I have a nuclear engineering degree of all things, but my position at Total Seal is to handle all of the new product development and serve as the contact person for all of the professional race teams. My job is to work with the racers and supply them with what they need. I spend a week in Charlotte about once a month. I love my job so much that I wouldn't give it up even to go racing. The nice thing is that if I have a question about gear ratios, or this or that, or something in the engine, I have an unlimited amount of phone numbers I can call at nine o'clock at night. We may not have all the answers, but we know people who do and that really helps us. There are very few people out there who have the encyclopedia of knowledge that it takes to be successful, and it helps to have resources that you can pull from."



Any special prep for the SummitRacing.com Nationals? "It doesn't matter if we go to 4-11 Dragway in Tennessee on a Wednesday night, and the only people there besides us are the ambulance driver and the starter, or if we're at Las Vegas Motor Speedway in front of 30,000 people. We focus on racing the same way, as hard as we can, pass after pass. When you try and change your approach you fail to focus on the right stuff. Don't get me wrong, we want to win the SummitRacing.com Nationals and set the world record, but we try to run as fast as we can, and win wherever we race regardless of the venue or how many people are watching. We want to do as well when we test as when we go to Las Vegas. We're learning what our car likes repetitively, and once you figure out what works, you have to do things the same every time. However, there will be some opportunities racing on a track as meticulously prepared as Las Vegas Motor Speedway. We were the first car into the 6.60s, we were the first car into the 6.50s. We want the Summit Racing Chevrolet to be the first car into the 6.40s. We're learning every minute of the day. Thank God we have great sponsors like Summit Racing Equipment, MTX Audio, GM, because if it weren't for them we couldn't do this."



What kind of performance potential do you see coming from the Summit Racing Chevrolet this year? "We want to have a car that is capable of running 6.40s. If we can run a 6.50 at Phoenix and Moroso, we know we can run a 6.50 anywhere. Our opponents know that if we get off the starting line we're probably going to put a 'fifty' on the board so your stuff better be tuned-up and ready to go. Our goal is to win the NHRA Pro RWD championship for Summit Racing and GM and to have that No. 1 on our car at the end of the year. With this new GM High-Feature V6 program, it was nice to have the whole winter to work on it and focus on some things that we didn't have time for last year."



Do you think a Pro RWD category with twin turbo V6 engines could fit somewhere in the POWERade series? "Someday, I'd like to see the Pro RWD class race at about 10 or 12 races a year like the AMS Pro Mod Series, and maybe compete here and there at some match races as well."



What are your long-term goals beyond 2005? "My goals have been pretty simple from the first day I saw Lee Shepherd go down the track. I want to win an NHRA Pro Stock championship, plain and simple, but right now I'm going to do what my budget allows me to do. Our focus right now, is winning a championship in Pro RWD."



What has Mylon Keasler meant to your program? "I've known Mylon for a long, long time and I probably wouldn't go racing without him. Mylon and I, we just click and we have that bond where I trust him completely. When I'm in the car, whatever he tells me on that radio, I don't argue. We'll have some discussions on the phone, or when we're at the track on what to do with the clutch, or something like that, but ultimately, there's never been a time in the last six years, there's never been a harsh word between us and there won't be in the next six years. We have a great deal of respect for each other, and even though he's not related to me, Mylon is part of my family. We keep our race shop in Maryville, Tenn., which is right by the Knoxville Airport. For the last five years that's where I've had all my stuff with the exception of the year I was with John (Lingenfelter). It works best for us to have everything in Tennessee and Mylon's shop is dedicated entirely to our program."

[pocket-rocket]

Jon, don't take this as an attack. I'm not going against experience here, but honestly, production and business are usually always about cost vs time. A backyard mechanic has more time to produce one off parts for his own car than a speed shop- looking at every fine detail isn't going to hurt them unless they are looking at a time table to have the car done by. I work in an RV production facility (and I know that probably discredits me a bit in some peoples minds, but some on here know me a bit more and know not to discredit me ) and I know all about cost vs time. I work on piece rate. No matter how long it takes me to produce a unit, I get the same pay, so at work, we run like the wind. This works to my advantage there because it nets me roughly $28/hr on an average week, and I'm out of there by lunch time. But if you think I'm going to put that kind of mentality into my own car, you are dead wrong. I tend to think along TGP37's lines a lot of the time, but I will admit, he dives a bit deeper than I do into the thought process behind it. I also believe he's got more smarts than I do to back it up. Then you have people like John and Ben. I know both of them, and they are going where most don't venture and are trying to combine both worlds to give the customer the best product at a competitive price.

[ForcedFirebird]

Cavi...grocery getter.

People make drag cars out of MG engines too...

You are quite a character, knowledge just flows off your tongue. Just an FYI, the 60v6 is in the New Camaro lol, yes it has room for groceries.

[slw240sx]

forced firebird, i just had a nice long post i wrote out to address yours and i lost it in timing out, i dont even feel like rewriting it.

cliff notes.

I have nothing to compare my work against yours, i am not saying i am better. I have not seen any of your recent work. the only thing i have seen are headers you built a few years ago, and those were mig welded. I would like to see your current work and im not saying that sarcasticly, i enjoy showing off my work and looking at other fabricators work. Giving and getting criticism its a great way to learn and expand our skill set.

i know thin wall is not the best, but it holds up fairly well i have kits that are 4-5 years old still on the road.

i prefer the thick wall 304-316 Stainless materials , but in certain builds its not feasible due to cost and weight. thats where 316-321 thin wall with double slip fit connectors comes into play, but again how many grand am people want to pay for a system whos materials will run from 800-1200K in cost alone? none...

the stuff i pie cut build is due to space constraints and customer request. that miata was because the customer wanted it, the LSX powered FD was because space was completely limited and the customer wanted pie cuts and wanted his muffler to be reused which i also had to shorten to get it to fit with that turbo back there. it was not my first choice on the solution. How ever that car did make over 700whp on moderate boost. i know its not the best way, but its what works and what the customer requests.

I know i am not competing in the same market. hell my market is not even GM stuff. my market is Honda, Nissan, Toyota, and Mitsu. i only build this thin wall stuff for milzy. Most everything i build for the other markets is 304 Thick wall Stainless manifolds. I can produce quality on the same level as those you mentioned, i just never dove into the BMW market.

Ill show you pictures of the next manifold i am doing as soon as the customer approves the building of it. its going on a GT3076R powered Sr20det, and i will be making it to utilize the twinscroll housing we ordered for the turbo.



i guess i ended up writing most of it out lol