1988 Olds Ciera XC - McLaren Turbo System install.

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Most of these posts are verbatim copied from the a-body forum where I originally posted. This is my second 60°V6 turbo project; and 6th overall turbo system to build and install.

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Well, the time has come to start this project! Hopefully I will be able to get it done before life gets in the way and I have to leave it for a few months again!

My goal here is to use ONLY the parts from the donor car (TGP), other than the pipework and odds and ends.

The TGP intercooler is oddly shaped and undoubtedly custom made for the TGP front end. It was not easy to fit into the Ciera and I have yet to get the air pipework completely sorted out. But I have the cooler mounted, and also the pusher-fan that was optional on all the A-cars.

First, I took off the damaged header panel. I have a new one that will replace it. Just have to put some gray paint on it first.


These two items will need to go in front of the condenser behind the bumper. The intercooler is an odd shaped thing with the spouts pointed in crazy directions!


Made a bracket (used pieces cut out of an old tool box) that supports the end of the cooler, and the lower mounting foot of the pusher-fan. Welded it onto the stiffener piece that goes over the condenser.


On the other end, I made a bracket that catches a bumper mount bolt and bolts to the other end of the cooler. You can see the severe angle of the hose spout on the cooler. I will have to get a rubber hose with a 90° end on it, laid inside the bumper channel to route air to that port.


And here's how it looks all together!




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Got an update today!

Started by removing the crossover pipe and surveying the room available.


Next, I took off the stock rear manifold and compared it to the McLaren Turbo rear manifold. See the difference?


Turbo manifold fits nicely, with new gasket of course!


Next, the turbo crossover goes on. Fits like it was made for this engine! But it needs some support. The factory McLaren TGP had a different transmission. I will have to build a bracket.


To the uninitiated, this may look like an old hydraulic pump mount. But to me, I see a turbo crossover support!


See, I found there WAS indeed a turbo crossover support hiding inside that old pump mount!


That crossover will NOT vibrate! Could probably lift the entire car by it...


Turbo, downpipe, and some of the cooling lines installed.


Unlike my previous, fully-custom turbo systems, the transmission dipstick tube clears the downpipe with only slight re-bending.


A couple things I learned for those possibly doing an LG5 swap, or turbo system swap. Firstoff, get EVERYTHING you can off the donor car. Fuel lines had to be used from donor. Front part of muffler pipe (between turbo downpipe and catalytic converter) has to come from TGP. There are some other heat sheilds and odd and end hardware that would be a pain to locate or build, but is factory installed on the TGP.

Since the TGP had a 440T4 transmission, and this car has a 125C, the TV cable comes out at a different angle. Somewhere I have a custom made steel one that I had on my other car. I will probably have to use this on the Ciera. There is no way the plastic one will live in this close proximity to the turbo. I did keep the TV cable from the TGP, but I don't think it will work because it is too short.

I'll be working on it over the holiday weekend, but parts availability and family fun will probably slow me down!

Also, since the header panel has to come off to get to the intercoler, I painted the replacement one I got from the JY. Someone had run into something with the original one. The new one was gold, so I painted it the same gray as the car. I simply pressure washed it with degreaser, then wet sanded it with red scotchbrite before painting it. It is not perfect, but for this car it is fine. It beats the cracked-up excuse for a header that WAS on the car! I was nearly a road hazard for chunks of fiberglass falling off!



Sincerely,
David
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[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Made some more progress today!

Used the original throttle-body coolant bypass pipe as a starting point. I cut off the tube and threaded the hole in the flange 3/8 pipe. Then it was easy to install a hose fitting. The other end of the assembly (the tube) was part of the original TGP coolant lines. I did modify the thermostat housing so that there is ALWAYS flow thorugh the bypass port, therefore ensuring turbo cooling.


Here it is installed on the engine!


The TGP has a 440T4 transmission. This car has a 125C. The turbo system was desighed around the 440T4. Unfortunately the 125C throttle-valve cable points directly at the turbo downpipe. So I had to make a Lefty TV cable end! In the picture below is the original Ciera plastic-end cable (left), my homemade Lefty cable end (center), and the TGP's original steel cased TV cable.


Here they are laid out on the floor. The Lefty fitting and the steel cable tube clear the turbo hardware. The plastic cable is far enough from the heat that it will work.


Got the starter and oilpan off. The oilpan on the Chevy engine is a PITA. I was pleasantly surprised it did not have a glues on oilpan. But it DOES have a yoke under the front of the engine that has to be removed first, after jacking up the engine and putting blocks under the pulley. The oifilter base has a plug in the end of it that will become the turbo's oil supply point.


Here's the filter base, cleaned up. You can see the plug in it. The upward facing port is for the oil pressure gauge.


Now the plug has been removed, the hole drilled out and threaded 1/8" pipe for the turbo oil fittings.


Here is the completed assembly. The brass fittings are arranged like that to allow the oil supply tube to clear the oil return tube and the starter.


So tomorrow I will be working on the oil return fittings. Could not find drill bit for the 3/8 pipe tap!

This is what I can think of, that remains:
Oil return
Exhaust coupling, TGP downpipe to Ciera muffler pipe.
Air pipework. This will be tricky.
Repairs as needed.

I learned something else about this car today. It has new front brake pads, rotors, and brake lines. Also it has a new Delco Remy starter, installed without shims so it is very noisy. It will be shimmed!

Later.
David


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.... I expect the 3 speed to last longer than the 4 speeds in the TGP's.. There were actually kinda week in the final gearing area.

The problem in the 3-speed trannies is the hydraulic pressure control system. Turbo engine makes more torque with less throttle input than non-turbo. The 3-speed tranny does not have a way to sense this, and it does not build enough hydraulic pressure at low throttle positions. Therefore, the clutches slip and burn out. The 4 speed unit has a vacuum modulator which is connected to manifold vacuum. It directly senses the earlier torque of the engine, and the pressure compensates.

With a shift kit, I could probably make it last. My 1986 T-Type (first turbo project ever) had a 125C. It would burn the 2nd gear band easily. That has a "first gen" iron head engine. It is a 3.1, ported and turbocharged. This Ciera has a "Second Gen" engine. It is naturally more powerful. But it is only 2.8, and with no porting. If the transmission feels like it slips too much, I'll have to do something with it. I'm not going to intentionally destroy it.

.... Are you going to at least rebuild the crossover befor you go any further? The cross over bellows are never EVER good on these TGP's..

It is new. I got incredibly lucky at the JY. I pressure checked it and the bellows are good. The other one I got is not so lucky. The bellows are bad, AND some idiot cut off the collector with a saws-all trying to take off the turbo without a 13mm wrench.

I am also curious how you are going to get around the EGR problem I see. It looks like you have a Digital EGR car, and the TGP EEPROM's are vacume controlled. Did you manage to grab the upper intake manifold off the donor car? Since the plenum has the MAF sensor, and boss, you will be needing.

The EGR I have a simple fix for. It is called a 1/2" pipe tap, followed by a 1/2" pipe plug. (I don't plan to use the EGR.)
I did get the plenum top, but it is all corroded and ugly. I just put new gaskets in this one when I changed the injectors so I want to not dismantle it. Not sure about a MAF boss because these engines are speed-density. That EGR is cavuum controlled, actually. It just has a nice plastic cover over the vacuum valves. I plan to keep it annd all the parts to re-mount it - so that if the car ends up in a smog nazi state they can re-install it for visual inspection reasons. The EEPROM code never sends a signal to that the way it is programmed now.

I'm using an ECM code from a newer car. It is code $A1. It is a speed-density code that was not originally designed for turbo applications, but it does have enough parameters in it to work with 2-bar MAP. I have the original TGP code, but I can't see how to get the speedometer and air conditioner to work in an A-body, without major modifications. The $A1 code has options in the code that tell it which type A/C and speed sensor system the car has. It is a truly univarsal code. The only thing it won't do is control the wastegate. I'm afraid the transmission will have "all it wants" without ramping up the wastegate anyway.

Steven, my 84 Olympia car had a 3 speed, but I only ran it 1 day before the clogged oiling system ruined the original 3.0 engine. I never ran the 3.8SFI engine with a 3 speed.

Here is where I have personally seen the different trannys break from excess torque.

125C - 2nd gear band burns, causing a 1-3 shift.
440T4 - 4th gear clutch burns causing loss of 4th.
4T65E - torque converter clutch disintegrates and contaminates valve body, causing transmission shifting failure.

Later,
David

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

I'm ready to see your oil lines! My turbo will be cooled only via oil, no water.

LOL the oil lines were a bitch on this one! The Buick engines (of which I have turbo'd 2) have more area on the side of the engine, to drill an oil return. This little tiny motor has barely any block skirt. Plus it has the DIS module mounted on the side of the engine. The oil lines are behind the starter in a very narrow space. In fact, between not having the right fittings, drill bit, and other problems - it took all day to make 2 oil lines!


First I removed the starting motor, cooling fan, and Freon lines and oilpan to gain access to the block. I then verified a safe place to make a return port in the block. There is no structural members in that area, and it is not in a water cooling jacket area. Drilled a 9/16" hole. (The red circles show cracks in the DIS coils. It still ran smooth!!!)


Then, I took the oil return fitting from the turbo, and removed the flare nut from the tube. I threaded out the flare nut with a 3/8 pipe tap so it is now an adapter fitting. I want no rubber hoses in the oil return. The tube has enough bends in it to absorb thermal stresses.


Supply and return lines installed. Will the DIS still fit?


YES the DIS still fits! I had to grind flat the outside of the oil return fitting to clear the starter solenoid. Starter not re-installed because oilpan must go on first. And before oilpan, new rod bearings and HV oil pump must go in!


Here are some layout of the turbo oil and cooling lines pictures:




So there you have it! Today I hope the oilpump and bearings are in at the store. Then I can get the engine back together. It just 'bothers' me to have an engine sit open, with all the dust and dirt collecting on the internal parts!

Thanks,
David

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Well - I did get the engine back together but not much else! The bearings looked fine. There was nothing wrong with them. I can tell the engine never was run without oil or run with a plugged/bypassing oil filter.

The upper right-most bearing set is a new set of inserts for comparison purposes.


The used bearings show a little bit of scratching. Probably a little too long on an oil change at some time during the life of the car. Other than that, I see no lubrication-related damage.


The crank journals all look perfect. Nothing here that would indicate an unhealthy engine.


Also, got the high-volume oilpump installed. It's noticable larger! This will more than make up for the increased oil flow requirements of the turbo.



I had hoped to start the engine today, and check for oil leaks on the turbo system. But, my work light broke and I couldn't see to connect the exhaust system. Tomorrow hopefully no (more) equipment failures or interruptions!

Later,
David

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

OK here's today's progress report! Did not burn out any welding equipment today - that's a plus! I did have to do some other unreated things so I only got about 3 hours of work done. It was mostly on the air pipework and exhaust.

First, I replaced the standard TB bolts with studs. It's an M8-1.25 stud. (note these are not the actual studs I ended up keepping in the system)


Then I built an air-conserving throttle body cap. With this cap, you'll get excellent milage! No, seriously this is just the beginning of the intake pipe.


I tacked the rest of the pipe in place, then removed it to fully weld.


The finished throttle body inlet pipe.


The two side ports are for the inlet air temp sensor (was in the manifold on the TGP) and the turbocharger outlet pressure line connection, for the wastegate actuator.


Here it is in place on the engine:


The studs and thermostat housing bolt fasten it to the engine. The silicone sleeve around the joint between the TB and pipe keep it a sealead assembly. There is no rubber hose near the exhaust system to deteriorate. The silicone sleeve came from the TGP. There is no way for this to blow off or hose burst at the TB from heat!


This is how it looks now, still have to make the rest of the intake pipes.


This is the exhaust lower downpipe. It is from the TGP. The upper downpipe (part of the engine) is offset about one inch to the left. This is because if was from a Grand Prix, not an A-body. This made it a PITA to connect the lower pipe to the engine. I had to lower the rear of the subframe about 2 inches to get clearance for a socket and extension to install the pipe. I installed 2 layers of fiberglass wrap, covered over with aluminum tape for protection. This is immportant because with the turbo system there is no longer room for the car's original heat sheilds. The pipe MUST be insulated to use without the sheilds. It could cause some melting of interior components otherwise! The car has no catalatic converter. The PO had replaced it with a Cherry Bomb. I plan to keep the CHerry Bomb but have the rest of the system replaceced with 2.5" pipe and a new Dynomax muffler. The existing pipe is full of kinks and patches, and the muffler is all bulged out like it has been backfired many times!



Later!
David

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Got the charge air pipework done today! It turned out OK but still a little convoluted because of the TGP intercooler.

This is the pipe for the hot air leaving the turbo going to the intercooler. The end on the right (the small end) connects to the turbocharger outlet. The other end goes to the cooler. The two tabs welded on to it are for mounting it to the car.


This is the cool air pipe It goes from the cooler to the thorttle body inlet tube.


The McLaren TGP turbo system adapted to an a-body. Turbo system ready to go once the very last details are sorted.






The heavy 2/0 gauge cable with the blue corrugated sleeve on it is the positive battery cable for the rear mounted battery. I used the battery's original location for the air filter. It took just as long to relocate the battery to the right side of the car as it does to move it to the trunk. So I moved it to the trunk because that looks "cleaner" in the end.


Positive cable going under dash in protective sleeve.


Tomorrow I will have the rest of the rear battery mod completed and possibly, maybe make a first boost test!

Later,
David

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Everything you make looks amazing. Nice job on the battery relocation too.

Thank you! My welding with flux-core wire looks somewhat "agricultural" but all my weldments have held up!

I need to rewire my amplifier and I've thought about just relocating the battery since I'm going to have to run 0 gauge all the way back to the trunk anyway.

I just wish these cars had a more convenient unused rubber plug in the firewall for aftermarket wiring. I'm guessing you had to drill that hole?

Yes I had to drill that hole. There was a little "pilot dimple" near the existing wiring harness and cable holes. I used a "step bit" to drill it out so the flex conduit would fit. There is a lot of open space in which to drill new holes, on both sides (near the drivers and near the passengers footwells). With a step bit and a cordless drill, it's easy!

I have put tar-tape around the penetration to seal out noise, dust, and water. Will have pictures of that later.

The battery positive cable on this car is 2/0 ("two-aught") cable. It is very stiff (type THHN industrial cable) but the insulation is HARD and it is gas and oil resisting. It lasts YEARS without deteriorating. Welding cable is also a possibility, but it has a soft rubber insulation that tends to rip and deteriorate easily. It is designed ot be flexible for welding, not long-lived like the industrial cable.

With my power inverter in the trunk it was easy to hook up directly to the battery positive stud and get virtually no voltage drop.

Later,
David

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OK it's getting close to test drive time!

Today I didn't have much time to work on it, but I did make a little progress.

Got the battery box and battery disconnect switch completely finished. Also got the starter and ground cables at the front end, done.




Got the relay for the pusher-fan installed. Actually I just re-assigned the no longer needed MAF sensor relay. Since the engine now runs speed-density, there is no need for a MAF. This relay and fuse holder work nicely for the fan relay! The original plastic cover goes back on and covers up everything nicely!


In the lower right corner of this picture, there is a panel with the main cooling fan relay, A/C compressor clutch relay, and fuel pump relay. Can any other Cutlass Ciera owners tell me, is there a plastic cover that goes over those relays?




Hopefully tomorrow I can test drive it and maybe make a video! Got to re-fit the header panel and get the lights working, and a few other odds and ends before that. But hopefully!

Later,
David

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Got it on the road! Here's a quick video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hs5iWJVK1c

I'm very very conservative because first, the ECM tune is not done and I have NOTHING hooked up to see detonation, AFR or boost. Second, there is no boost gauge yet. So this was a careful test drive!

Here are the pictures of getting the last details sorted, starting with the relay cover.

To most, this looks like an old electrical box, with missing sides. I see something else....


Hiding in the box is a perfect Cutlass Ciera relay cover!


See, it fits perfectly!


All complete except for header....


All together! A sharp eye will notice the little intercooler in there!


Still got to find the freon leak on the A/C. I charged it last year and it worked well for a while, then lost its charge.

Later,
David

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The car is running good, and I got a little tuning time in on it. But, then it started raining and got dark out.

The spring pressure on the stock TGP wastegate apparently is about 5 PSI. Tomorrow I'm going to install a control valve to allow raising the boost. The limit of the MAP sensor is 15 PSI. I hope to push it to at least 10.

But I am happy because NO LEAKS on the engine, oil, water or boost air. It's all working beautifully. Just got to get time to tune it during daylight and dry weather.

I'll keep updating as I get the tune perfected and work the kinks out of the system.

Sincerely,
David

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Where it all started!

In case you're wondering, I found the Ciera at a junkyard, and found a Pontiac Turbo Grand Prix at another yard. The TGP was beyond saving (the yard would not sell it as a whole car, as well as having a moderate fire damage)















Here's the car when I got it:




Here is the car now:








As you saw in the turbo install pictures, I've installed a new grille and header panel, as well as some wider (and matched!) tires

David

[robertisaar]

check out my nAst1 project in the OBD1 tuning section, very soon to have native boost support.

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

check out my nAst1 project in the OBD1 tuning section, very soon to have native boost support.

Awesome. I am actually running an $A1 code right now. It's working well.

Thanks for the note, I'm about to read about it now.
David

[1988GTU]

Very nice David! I am jealous that your car contains minimal to no rust! No fair!

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Very nice David! I am jealous that your car contains minimal to no rust! No fair!

Thanks! Yes the South has its advantages. I've bought 3 cars from junkyards here that had zero rust.

This was at a junkyard, I bought the whole car with "blown engine" (actually timing chain). It was destined to be parted.


And the bottom:


My 84 Century Olympia, the Ciera XC (this thread) and the Century Limited (pictured above) were all JY cars. The actual wrecks you can take parts from are equally rust-free.

David

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Did a little tuning today! The car is running very well, but it is MISERABLE hot because no freon in A/C. My laptop stopped working from the heat, and then AFR display's wideband sensor quit. So I got about an hour of tuning in on it. Now after the WB sensor failure I don't trust the work I did this morning. It may have been messing up all along before it flagged as bad.

But I drove the car about 50 miles today without any problems! The 2.8 takes 6 PSI boost without any problems and it asks for more!

Thanks,
David

[robertisaar]

when you can clearly see the rust on JUST the welds of a muffler, that's when you know it's clean....

that is simply amazing.