TGP 3.1 3400 Hybrid.. Building questions

[94GPGTP]

Well i have my TGP pretty much finished.. Its mainly stock besides the 5 speed 282 and 14 PSI out of the T25.. I am picking up another TGP in a few weeks and keeping it Auto and want to build this engine to get me into the high 13's.. My 5 speed ran a 14.7@93mph and if i can launch it my times would get better.. I want to do the 3400 hybrid to this 3.1.. I do already have 3100 Large port UIM and LIM from a 99+.. What do i need to change? I currently have a spare 96 3100.. I should be able to use the roller fulcrum rockers from it with the pushrods? Do i need to change the heads? Put large port heads on it? I heard alot about the timing cover being different.. and the rest coolant and fuel wise i can figure out.. All emissions is deleted and i cut the EGR port off the intake and welded it shut.. Im not sure what turbo to run with this setup either.. any suggestions?

[RedZMonte]

i dont know about the heads and stuff but as for turbo, i would do a T3 or t3/t4... depending on your hp goals. to the calculations and map it out, garrett and turbonetics both post compressor maps for you to use

[TurboGTU]

http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?topic=2604.0

You could skip the step about the lifters and just use your stock lifters and cam and just go with aftermarket custom pushrods. ANyone wanto chime in on the hybrid lenth pushrod?

[pontiacjeff]

Been there, done that, but I'm not sure if it's exactly what you are talking about doing. It's in a 91 Sunbird 5-speed. With turbo. I happen to have it back for some work and more tuning, so I'll take some pics and post tonight. Here's what I did: 2000-model 3400 from a van. Heads and manifolds off the 3.1 Turbo. Modified the crossover with a T3 flange. Straight T3, .63a/r turbine hsg. Custom downpipe. It's been two years, but here's what I remember about the swap: I used the stock 3400 roller lifters and cam and the stock 3100 rocker arms. IIRC, I had to use the stock 3.1 pushrods, but only after taking the roller lifters apart and bleeding them all the way down so they would lash properly. I tried to fit it all together, and it looked like the pushrods were going to be too short. The lifters, after 140K miles, didn;t want to pump up. I soaked them all in kerosene over night, disassembled them, cleaned them with a pipe cleaner, and reassembled them. They came in about .010-.015" preload. Alot less than the factory uses, but just like I like them. Oh, I switched out the wire retainers for steel snap-rings due to the tight lash. I do remember changing the timing cover, tho I don;t remember why. I think it was partially so I could retain the r.s. dogbone-a/c bracketry. It looks totally stock "3.1 Intercooled Turbo". The engine made more on 4psi boost after the swap than it did on 7psi boost before the swap. it was not a bad swap, alot of people ridiculed me for it. But it is a torque monster. The turbo spools about 1000rpm earlier than it did before. It made 250whp on 10psi with the (relatively) small turbo and a tiny intercooler. I now have a bigger Starion fmic on it. I will be taking it to the dyno tomorrow.

[94GPGTP]

Been there, done that, but I'm not sure if it's exactly what you are talking about doing. It's in a 91 Sunbird 5-speed. With turbo. I happen to have it back for some work and more tuning, so I'll take some pics and post tonight. Here's what I did: 2000-model 3400 from a van. Heads and manifolds off the 3.1 Turbo. Modified the crossover with a T3 flange. Straight T3, .63a/r turbine hsg. Custom downpipe. It's been two years, but here's what I remember about the swap: I used the stock 3400 roller lifters and cam and the stock 3100 rocker arms. IIRC, I had to use the stock 3.1 pushrods, but only after taking the roller lifters apart and bleeding them all the way down so they would lash properly. I tried to fit it all together, and it looked like the pushrods were going to be too short. The lifters, after 140K miles, didn;t want to pump up. I soaked them all in kerosene over night, disassembled them, cleaned them with a pipe cleaner, and reassembled them. They came in about .010-.015" preload. Alot less than the factory uses, but just like I like them. Oh, I switched out the wire retainers for steel snap-rings due to the tight lash. I do remember changing the timing cover, tho I don;t remember why. I think it was partially so I could retain the r.s. dogbone-a/c bracketry. It looks totally stock "3.1 Intercooled Turbo". The engine made more on 4psi boost after the swap than it did on 7psi boost before the swap. it was not a bad swap, alot of people ridiculed me for it. But it is a torque monster. The turbo spools about 1000rpm earlier than it did before. It made 250whp on 10psi with the (relatively) small turbo and a tiny intercooler. I now have a bigger Starion fmic on it. I will be taking it to the dyno tomorrow.

So your using 3x00 internals on the older 3.1 intakes?

I believe my swap consists of heads up 3x00. I want to keep my T25 but making a 2.5" custom DP for it to breath better. Not looking to spend any extra money on upgrading the turbo yet.

[ghrarhg]

The stock T25 is going to be a huge bottleneck. You may really want to consider a turbo upgrade, especially if you're considering a down pipe anyway. I did a 3400 top swap on my 2.8 last year, and fabbed up a full 3" exhaust from the turbo back. I thought the turbo was a bottle neck on my car, and that was 0.3L less displacement. I had 10+ psi at around 2600, but the top end would taper off due to back pressure. I did notice some impovement from the large dp/exhaust, but the turbo is your real killer.

As far as the head swap, you're best off measuring for pushrods to get it right. My lengths were definitely on the long side compared to most, but I also went with a cam at the same time, so that adds to pushrod length.

You need to swap to the gen3 timing cover to bolt up the power steering pump. The gen 2 PS pump doesn't fit with the gen 3 intakes. As a result you'll need different power steering lines i believe. I switched to 95gp ps lines, but i'm not sure if you can make the gen 2 lines work.

You'll have to port the TGP manifolds to work with the 3x00 ports.

I also had an issue with the throttle body location relative to the turbo/existing crossover. I had hack/weld the crap out of the upper charge pipe, and hammer it some to get it to fit the TB and clear the turbo. Another vote for going with a larger turbo and different downpipe.

Other than that, there are little odds and ends that you'll have to deal with (by that I mean lots of other shit I can't remember right now) but it wasn't terrible.

[94GPGTP]

Ghrarhg,

that's info that I was needing!! Thank you...

Now to make it clear I do use the 3x00 heads and then need custom pushrods?

And do you still want to sell the ported 3x00 Tgp manifolds?

[pontiacjeff]

I hate to butt in, you seem to have your mind set on this, but for all the time, effort, and expense, you can bolt on a T3 and make way more power than any gains you think you will see by swapping on the 3100/3400 heads and intake. Just cut off the T25 flange and weld on a T3 flange. You are planning to build a custom downpipe anyway, right? So build it for the T3. The T25 is only capable of 20psi and 260hp. You will probably see the 260hp long before you see 20psi on a 3.1L. And the more boost you push, the lower the peak HP rpm will be. I saw a TGP running 15psi on the stock turbo and it peaked at 3600rpm! That turbo was used for one reason, to keep warranty claims low. It would be nearly impossible for the non-driver owner to blow it up. And it made the car feel fast as hell even tho it was slow as christmas.

On the other hand, the 3.1 I built with the T3 in the Sunbird made 200whp at 5500rpm on 7psi and that was with a tiny FMIC. It would take 15psi with a T25 to do that and it would be come in no higher than 4000rpm.

The 3400 and it's roller cam profile wake an awesome combo under the old 3.1 heads and manifolds. The best thing is the stock turbo "kit" bolts right on. The smaller ports are not an issue, remember, the turbo creates air flow!

Or instead of any engine mods, why don't you just raise the boost one or two psi. It will do what you are trying in terms of power, and you can do it without getting dirty even!

[pontiacjeff]

The best part is it looks stock. Most people would never know any different.

[ghrarhg]

Yeah, if you use the 3x00 heads you will need custom length pushrods.

I'm not sure about the TGP manifolds right now. I would have said no a week ago, but my new turbo has been on backorder forever, and I just found out today that they have no idea when they'll get it. It looks like I may be heading a different direction with my turbo build. I'll update you soon about the manifolds if you're still interested.

Jon

[SHOoff]

On the other hand, the 3.1 I built with the T3 in the Sunbird made 200whp at 5500rpm on 7psi and that was with a tiny FMIC. It would take 15psi with a T25 to do that and it would be come in no higher than 4000rpm.

The 3400 and it's roller cam profile wake an awesome combo under the old 3.1 heads and manifolds. The best thing is the stock turbo "kit" bolts right on. The smaller ports are not an issue, remember, the turbo creates air flow!

Not to be a dick, but the smaller ports ARE an issue, and the 3.1 heads and manifolds are killing you on that 3400. I say this because there are pleanty of guys with 3400's that are making around 200whp with no boost at all.

Think of it this way. Take a regular drink straw from McDonalds or some place similar, and take one of those little tiny coffee straws. Blow through both of them as hard as you can. Notice you're creating the airflow, but you're getting a lot more volume and don't have to work as hard to blow air through the bigger hole.

[TurboGTU]

Altho this may be true about the hp. It is an increase in power due to the unshrouding of the valves. ONly advantage to the old school tgp upper is that it make killer torque the 3400 top end can't make. Kuzties tgp made 300hp and 400lbs of torque while most 3400 split the hp and torque to about 330hp/torque. Depend are what your needs and wants are.

[mickaz]

Altho this may be true about the hp. It is an increase in power due to the unshrouding of the valves. ONly advantage to the old school tgp upper is that it make killer torque the 3400 top end can't make. Kuzties tgp made 300hp and 400lbs of torque while most 3400 split the hp and torque to about 330hp/torque. Depend are what your needs and wants are.

that is because the 3.1 is not roller, is intake are shit and is exhaust are restrictive. 400+ Hp is easier to get on a gen 3 engine. hp is a measure of how long you can use your torque.

[pocket-rocket]

I thought the gen 2s made good torque because of the runner setup (long and skinny- creates velocity, vs short and fat for high rpm power by using high flow).

[mickaz]

I thought the gen 2s made good torque because of the runner setup (long and skinny- creates velocity, vs short and fat for high rpm power by using high flow).

exacly what I said: The intake are shit