Timing Cover and Timing Chain

[PCGUY112887]

For those who saw my other thread about finding some flakes in my oil...

http://60degreev6.com/forum/f96/so-worried-flakes-in-3500-oil-t43837

I keep having a sneaking suspicion that it may be coming from my cam or timing gear/chain. When I built the motor, the only bolt I FORGOT to torque to spec was the cam bolt. I made it "tight" but I have no idea how tight. It has been fine all this time so I stopped worrying about it (it made me paranoid for the first few months), but I think my sometimes varying valvetrain noise could POSSIBLY be coming from the fact my cam bolt may be loose or getting loose, allowing the cam to rock a bit, thus maybe creating some flakes from the cam or from the timing set.

So what I want to do is pull my timing cover and check it out, and go ahead and put on a new chain and if the gear is worn, replace it as well. Now I have seen how earlier model chains were beefier looking than my stock 3500 chain, which is what I used. Should I go with an older chain? I don't think I want to go aftermarket after seeing some others results with 3400-95-Modified's motor.

My other question is, what all is it going to take to get my timing cover off with the motor in the car? To me it looks like I can pull the crank pulley through the wheel well with the tire off, and get the rest of it with the coolant tank pulled out. But the GM manual wants me to drop the subframe, oil pan, take off motor mounts, loosen the tranny and drain all coolant! I know some coolant will leak out of certain bolts, but does it really all need to be drained? What all do you guys have to do to pull a timing cover in car? I know my W-body is bigger than the others...

[IsaacHayes]

Geldartb had the noisy top end until he took it apart and retorqued the cam bolt... so you may be on to something..

Cool thing about a W body, is it's a HELL of a lot easier to take the timing cover off with the motor in the car. No mount in the way, and more space. I've done it in an L body, and wow, surprising it even came off!!

Yes go with an older chain. Jon's 2000 set didn't last long with LS6 springs and a milzy cam. Go with the 99 or older 3100/3400 set.

Pull the crank pulley properly, take off all the bolts and take the cover off. Remember there are locating dowels. You don't have the big mount that goes through it like I did. And you have more room. Just don't tear the oil pan gasket or you'll have to drop the subframe to pull the pan probably. I didn't do all that I just removed it, and then put silicone in the corners of the oilpan gasket where the TC meets the pan and bolted it back up. Put on a new crank seal too while you're there just in case. Those are cheap. Remember to put silicone on the dampener in the right spot.

Try and pull a coolant drain plug in the block if you can get to one easily. I just drained the coolant from the radiator but when I took off the TC, the big ports leaked coolant out of the block and all over the place some into the oil. So after re-aseembly, I pulled the oil plug after it sat over night and some coolant came out, then plugged it back up, got it warm a bit, then changed the oil.

Search for my thread, about the timing chain.

But yeah new GM 99 or older 3x00 set. You'll need the sprockets too. Check the guide to see if the rubber is still pliable, and not worn. If it is, get a new one too while youre in there.

[geldartb]

i re-torqued mine at 106 this time. ive been using the 99 timing set from GM the whole time. couldnt tell you why it was making the noise it was but initially i had the cam gear torqued to 105.

i got everything from gmpartsdirect for something like 140 shipped. thats both sprockets the chain and the guide.

ive had the side cover off twice in the grand am. its not that bad once i got the motor mount out of the way it was fairly easy to to everything else.

after all this crap with the cloyes stuff id run the other way. you know the saying you get what you pay for. theres gotta be a reason why you get the whole thing with chain and sprockets for the price that GM sells the chain for.

just looking at the pics Jon posted you can see it doesnt have the same beef that the stock stuff has.

heres a before

http://s60.photobucket.com/albums/h5/95blackz26/Videos/?action=view&current=100_0826.flv

heres an after

http://s60.photobucket.com/albums/h5/95blackz26/Videos/?action=view&current=MOV00854.flv

do you have any video's of the car shortly before all this happened.

[3400-95-Modified]

Damn your engine is quite now... lol

Yes, I would recommend staying away from aftermarket OEM replacements. Also go with the older 99 and older style chain, they are much beafier than the stock 00+ ones.

This new set when it comes in I hope to be sending off for cryo treatment to extend its life. Hell its only 25 bux and if he can have it back to me in less than a week thats fine.

Oh and for cover removal, They say to remove the pan but its not necessary, just be sure to seal the end of the motor good when going back together. Also I recommend draining all the coolant because then less will dump in to you engine when you pull the cover. I'm going to try and reach my block drain plugs tonight to see if I can start to get this thing apart and see what I have going on in there. I typically drain and attempt to reuse as much of that coolant as I can filtering out any crap that got in it, this time may be a little harder to catch everything, especially from the rear block drain.

I'v done a timing cover in a N-body before and if you have the same amount of clearance you'll be fine. I' have next to nothing on the side of my engine... This is gonna suck.

[PCGUY112887]

But yeah new GM 99 or older 3x00 set. You'll need the sprockets too. Check the guide to see if the rubber is still pliable, and not worn. If it is, get a new one too while youre in there.

i got everything from gmpartsdirect for something like 140 shipped. thats both sprockets the chain and the guide.

OK So is the only place to get an OEM chain through GM/gmpartsdirect? Do I really need a new cam gear too? The crank gear would stay right? I thought they could be interchanged with the older chains.... or is it just a matter of the chain and the gears and guide being sold as a set?

As far as the guide, I don't remember any rubber being on my guide? It was just a hard plastic piece, I read it was the tensioner but had no idea how it worked since it didn't touch the chain or anything.

[3400-95-Modified]

The center guide should be somewhat soft rubber, its not like a tire but its still a dampener. No it should not touch the chain either.

See in my pic how the outsides are darker, thats where the rubber is.


To do the 99 chain you need BOTH sprockets and a new chain.. the 00+ one is thinner so the older larger chain wont fit the sprockets.

If your doing the same year chain as you have now it's still highly recommended to replace the sprockets with the chain since its all a set and they typically wear in together... hell they aren't that expensive.

[IsaacHayes]

my guide had hardened to brittle plastic and broke to pieces when taking off... lol I think I hit it though with the cover when pulling it off.

Jon, soon you will feel my pain when I did mine in the car!

[PCGUY112887]

So how does that sprocket come off the crank? I always thought it was all 1 piece.

Also, can I get a GM part # for the 99 whole set?

Thanks.

[3400-95-Modified]

I'm on my phone right now, but I'll try to get you all the p/n's tomorrow, only one I don't have on hand is the guide, but if you go to GM just ask for a 96 beretta 3100 chain guide, it's the one you want. That is if this is your issue... Also I'm sending mine out fo cryogenic treatment.

You get the crank sprocket off using a 2 or 3 jaw gear puller.

[3400-95-Modified]

Part numbers for 94-99 3100/3400 timing set.

Cam Sprocket 10166350
Crank Sprocket 14074400
Chain 10166352
Dampener 10166353

I'll add the chain guide number when I get my order in. I couldn't find it on GM Parts Direct, so he had to search it for me at GM directly.

UPDATED with all P/N's
I'm happy to see "Morse USA" written on the chain links again, so now I know it is different than the Cloyes sets, their chains are unmarked.

[geldartb]

the crank sprocket for the 05 3400 isnt a press fit it just slides on. which im gonna go out on a limb here and say that started with the newer style chain setup.

[PCGUY112887]

So does that mean older setups won't be compatible on newer motors? My 3500 is an 04. Does it take a special tool to get the sprocket off the crank or what? As said before I thought it was all 1 piece and don't really have any idea how it comes off.

[3400-95-Modified]

Ok, you need to read more and think a little less, your confusing yourself... LOL

The sprocket will pull right off your 3500 crank, just grab and pull... if not then just get a 3 jaw puller and use that, it will slide off easily with that. THEN just install the older sprockets chain and dampener and you will be set.

Superdave is currently running his 3500 with a GM 99 chain set.

[IsaacHayes]

Yeah, and when you tighten the crank bolt back down the dampener will push the crank sprocket to the right spot correct?

[bszopi]

Yeah, and when you tighten the crank bolt back down the dampener will push the crank sprocket to the right spot correct?

No. Typically there is a timing cover between the dampener and the sprocket, so that wouldn't really work. You basically need something that fits over the crank end, but not over the sprocket. Then you can use the crank bolt to press the sprocket further onto the crank. This was all discussed in a different thread within the last week...