Timing Sets.

[3400-95-Modified]

Ok well I'm going to be pulling my timing cover to replace my chain and sprockets since I think the are stretched...

Now my question to everyone is, What brand did you guys go with?

I did a Cloyes set on my STOCK 3400 way back when I put it in my red car...

This is what happened to the cam sprocket after 60k miles ***NOTE this is not the condition of the current timing set in question... At least I don't think so.


Very badly chewed up and the chain was stretched enough to not be all that impressed with the quality of the part.

Now when I did my chain on my Hybrid I used the same brand set... Unfortunately I did not know of this failure till AFTER I had put the motor in my 96... Had I known about this before I probably would have bought GM parts.

BUT now if I search for timing sets through Advance Auto, their default is S.A. Gear Who is this? are they cheap or better? price is exactly the same as Cloyes, since you can get both from Autozone and I see the C-3036 price is the same as the 73116 number for the S.A. Gear brand.

I stretched the newer 2000+ thin chain on my old setup with a Milzy cam and the LS6 yellow springs.. I had video of that on my photo bucket showing the slack after a measley 15k miles...

So thats why I'm sticking with the larger/older revision of the chain.

So what do you think...
Gamble with S.A. Gear? do ANOTHER Cloyes set? or go to GM Parts Direct or my dealer and get a OEM setup. Chains and gears I have pulled from stock motors look BEAUTIFUL compared to this stuff... Granted the two chains I have stretched/wrecked were both motors run with a FFP UDP and no dampener on it... This latest revision I have had my stock pulley on the whole time, but if I move the crank by hand with a ratchet I can hear/feel a bit of slop in the chain.

Oh another one I just found is the Sealed Power Sets... I use all sealed power bearings and pistons... are the gear sets just as good? Rock Auto has those, and they are twice the price of the Cloyes or S.A. sets.

OEM PN's in post #30

http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthread.php/43914-Timing-Sets?p=394668&viewfull=1#post394668

Support WOT-Tech too!
http://wot-tech.com/shop/gm-60v6/94-.../prod_292.html

[IsaacHayes]

When I put a Cloyes on mine, I did not use the sprockets because with the sprockets it was looser than with the factory ones (smaller diameter?). And the casting did not look that great. The OEM sprockets were not worn at all that I could feel or see. So I just put in the Cloyes chain and a new guide/dampener. That sprocket looks horrible!!

Glad I just did the chain. I don't know about SA gear, but it was more expensive than the Cloyes. The Cloyes full set (chain and sprockets) was the same price as just the chain. SA Gear set was at WesternAuto/PartsAmerica/AdvanceAutoParts/whatever they call it now. Not sure on what the prices are now. But I got the Cloyes set from Orielly's for cheap.

I'd skip the Cloyes, not sure about SA gear, maybe more research is needed or test it out for everyone and see. Since you do have a cam/stronger springs I would go for OEM chain and keep the OEM sprockets. My chain was loose but that was well over 100k miles. I think it first starting making noise at around 150k. When I got the car with over 100k on it, the motor was super quiet, so it was good then.

So I say OEM chain unless you research and find that the SA gear is strong... At least OEM you know is pretty durable. Skip the Cloyes since it has shown it's not that great.

Or put up with the chain slap noise until the single roller is available from CNCGuy...

[Firehawk94]

Well, the best info that i can tell you is this. I am currently using an S.A gear set on my Firebird as we speak and Ive put about 10000 mi. on it and it is doing just fine. I was skeptical as well, but I had to replace my timing set so I took the chance and to this day my timing is still accurate and the chain is not stretched, just checked it cause you made me raise and eyebrow with your problem lol.

Also, I have a question. Why did you remove the dampener? Is it needed to utilize the underdrive pulley? The reason I ask is because any vibrations that are generated by the crank are getting directly transferred to the timing chain and eventually to your valvetrain which isnt good for the timing set or the valvetrain for that matter. Im willing to bet that is some of the cause of your timing set issues.

If only there was a manufacturer out there that produced a double roller timing chain set or a geardriven set for all of you guys running the beefed up cams and valvetrains......one can only wish

[3400-95-Modified]

There is a double roller timing chain avilable... I just don't want to have to remove my crank to have it machined to fit... or have to thin out my timing cover for clearance.

I need a single roller chain that fits as stock does to come out before I go custom.

When I was running the UDP, there is no rubber dampener ring around the pulley like the stock one, so in theory yes, when you put a UDP on your removing the only dampener there is. Hence the topic on here about a UDP with dampener part they are working on.

I'm not so worried about chain slap noise, but more the timing difference... bottom line you should NEVER be able to hear your crank sprocket click back and forth on the chain if your turning the crank by hand. My 1/16 of an inch rotation that i get is probably worth 2-3* maybe more in cam timing. I've played with cam degree bushings before and I've seen how small they are and how easily it is to make a big difference like 20HP if you go the wrong way.

Firehawk94, your setup is factory, so its hard to compare, I was hoping for like Dave to chime in or someone else with a cam and heavy springs that has a recommendation on which chain set would be better.

I'm going to GM in about 2 min to price it out through them GMPD says 127 for the 3 piece set shipped to me, that does not include the center guide though, I cant find a p/n for it.

[Firehawk94]

Firehawk94, your setup is factory, so its hard to compare, I was hoping for like Dave to chime in or someone else with a cam and heavy springs that has a recommendation on which chain set would be better.

I agree, and I forgot to mention that mine was indeed stock and I dont blame you for wanting to dig deeper for a good timing set...these things are important haha. At least for us "stockers" IMHO the S.A gear set is a good set I havent used a cloyes set on any of my vehicles and from the sound of your experience with them Im going to leave them alone.

[3400-95-Modified]

Sad part is, I always thought of Cloyes being a good brand... I guess not.

Oh and Isaac, the Cloyes and S.A. sets are both 44 bux now from autozone so the price is the same.

[60dgrzbelow0]

Stock GM Timing Set vs, Cloyes "True Roller"

I've recently done a Cloyes "True Roller" Timing Set replacement on a complete GM 3.4L re-build project and have recorded an album of side-by-side images between the stock old, worn-out GM Timing Set and a new Cloyes "True Roller" Timing Set. I have included all the information on the installation, including the Cloyes instructions for dealing with the issues of advancing/retarding timing. These might be helpful. The simple fact is...the "V" designed plates vs. gear teeth just wear out sooner than they should because of the lack of good lubrication and the stress caused by the crank generating far too much torque on the smaller crank timing gear. The "Bicycle Chain" design resists this damage because the "rollers" absorb and distribute these forces while rotating and spreading the stress out better and also avoid the wear tear in the same way. There is also the additional benefit that happens because by requiring less horsepower to make the set turn properly, this allows the engine to make HP that will wind up as RWHP instead of being wasted trying to make metal against metal parts function under all that hard labor. Even at three time the cost of the original "V" design chain variety, the "True" Roller Set may be worth the money in the long run...especially if other mods raise the HP in your engine by a substantial measure.

http://s557.photobucket.com/albums/ss19/60dgrzbelow0/CLOYESTRUEROLLERTIMINGSET/

[3400-95-Modified]

This helps me in no way... I dont have a GEN1/2 cam shaft, I have a GEN3 roller cam setup, Cloyes does NOT make a true roller setup for my application.

I wish it was that easy.

My choices are Cloyes OEM, S.A. OEM, GM OEM, Sealed Power OEM, OR WOT-Tech TCE Double Roller, which I then need to machine my crank.

I just got back from GM, and they are ordering me the whole 4 piece setup for 145+ tax... I figure it's my best option right now rather than playing games with $44 parts and $88 parts, and also not spending $234 on a double roller setup which will also include more machining costs.

Superdave, when and if you do read this, What brand are you using? And can you hear chain slack by moving your crank pulley by hand?

[1988GTU]

Also, I have a question. Why did you remove the dampener? Is it needed to utilize the underdrive pulley? :

[60dgrzbelow0]

Dammit...You're right...Sorry...(Forgot)

This is the only one Cloyes makes for an OEM replacement...

[bszopi]

Pretty sure Dave is using a stock, pre-whatever year so as to have the beefier chain.

[IsaacHayes]

Yeah the FWD pulley has the dampener built in. They are not two separate pieces.

I know Dave is running the older chain, but not sure of brand.

[3400-95-Modified]

Pretty sure Dave is using a stock, pre-whatever year so as to have the beefier chain.

Ok, thats what I moved on to... no more Cloyes... and yeah I'm pre 2000 chain as well, the heavier one. I stretched a stock 05 chain in 15k miles with LS6 springs and a milzy cam... no way in hell was that going to survive in my new setup. I also think Dave stretched one of those badly too, hence why he went back to the pre 00 version.

I found my full set from the sprocket I posted above, even the crank sprocket shows some rough/sharp edges. I then found my 160k, or 215k mile chain and sprocket set... I cant remember if it came from my wicked high mileage motor, OR if it came from the 160k parts car I bought but either way those sprocket show nearly nothing for wear, and thats 100k at least over what the one I posted above has on it.

I think the Cloyes ones just aren't hardened as well, or maybe I got a bad set... we'll see what the one thats in there looks like when it comes out.

Its almost like a no brainer when you see them side by side too...
Cloyes on right... the chain itself just looks much weaker, Yeah I know its also different because its a roller joint, not rocker so it can bend both directions, but that my help prevent wear if it can only bend in one direction.

[geoffinbc]

If your not going to run a damper then this is what you need to be prepared for. No timing set will last without it and its a proven fact.

I still love it when everyone say "Oh I have been running it for a year now and my engine is fine."

Really? Are you sure about that?

Put a new set on. GM, COMP, Cloyes Sealed power or whatever and put your damper back on and it won't happen again. No horsepower is worth more than reliability.

Your sprocket it not worn, its beaten to shit, you can see both the front and back sides of the teeth have been damaged. If it was under constant pull like it should be from the crank then only one side would show major wear and the wear would be polished down and not look like tiny hammers smashed the teeth to hell. Pull the cam, what does the oil pump gear look like?

[3400-95-Modified]

Ok, jumping to conclusions...

Yes that is what my cam gear looked like when I was running the UDP for 60k, This new motor and cam setup with my latest Cloyes set has NEVER SEEN THE UDP. I'm running a stock dampener. Hell I just shipped the UDP to John so they can measure it up to get specs to the guys who want to do a UDP with a dampener.

This latest revision I have had my stock pulley on the whole time, but if I move the crank by hand with a ratchet I can hear/feel a bit of slop in the chain.

I will see what this timing set looks like when I remove it. I don't think it will be as beat as the one pictured above, BUT I do think it will be stretched enough to make noise.

Bottom line holding the Cloyes and stock GM sets in my hand I can FEEL a difference between the two. The Cloyes set just feels much cheaper and thinner, or even a lighter material that doesn't hold up well. This is why I ordered a factory GM set, it should all be in on Monday at the latest. New sprockes, chain and guide.