Dry sump on a 3400

[geldartb]

searched for this on here but didnt turn up much info so here i am.

anyone ever install a dry sump setup on a 3400 or similar motor.
i know theres some hp that gets freed up with this setup.
this would not be going on my daily driver.
just looking to get the best use of power from the motor, and make it perform better.

if anyone has any links to parts or if you have done it before post up.

[geoffinbc]

Haven't seen one yet. But the pan would need to be modified with a sheet aluminum bottom and a scavenge hookup. You could just use a single scavenge section. You don't need 4 or 5 scavenge points for a street motor. Then you need to mount a pump, reservoir, remote filter and then plumb a pressure line to the stock location on the block. The block will also require a block off plate at the oil filter location.

I have seen some great dry sump deals on E-Bay.

[geldartb]

cool ill check out ebay. this would be a future mod though if i get that far.

[Will'sFiero]

If there's a remote oil filter adapter available for the V6's, you could incorporate that instead of just blocking off the filter.

Unless the pan crushes, you don't need a fabbed aluminum pan, just a fitting in your stock pan.

I would look at 2-3 scavenge pumps, one for the pan and either one for each valve cover or one pulling from both. You'll also the external items mentioned above: tank, filter, cooler, etc.

As you can see, there's quite a bit of weight that gets added with a dry sump system. The semi-dry sump setup in C6 ZO6's is the largest single chunk of weight that's added to that car. It's the biggest reason that the ZO6 weighs almost the same as the normal C6, instead of being lighter.

Dry sump done on race cars to allow high cornering G's and to allow mounting the engine lower in the chassis. I wouldn't bother with it unless I needed those two things. It's a REALLY expensive and time consuming way to get 5-10 HP. If you want extra power, just set up a crankcase vacuum pump and leave the wet sump in place.

It's possible to pull down crank case pressure using the Bernoulli effect from the fast moving exhaust gasses. You may have occasionally seen a race engine with a tube going from the valve cover to a T on the header collector... that uses exhaust energy to lower crank case pressure and free up a few HP.

[geldartb]

i got a remote oil filter thing that fits on these engines.

i was just looking for option see it all the time on tv and always wondered if it was doable on these engines.

found a neat article explaining vacuum pumps

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/vacuum-pumps.html

would i be able to use the smog pump found on the cali emissions cars for this.

[geoffinbc]

You will need a block off plate for the oil filter mount that only has an inlet fitting. Or you can use a remote filter adaptor and use a plug on the outlet side.
Scavanging from the valve cover is not a good idea unless you can ensure the cam lobes will get enough splash lubrication. If you pull all the oil from the valve covers then there is no drainback oil for the cam lobes. People who use this type of scavange system have done so because they completley seperate the valve section from the crankcase.

[geldartb]

what about getting the z06 sump kit . i know its for a totally diff engine but would it be doable.

[geoffinbc]

Might be I have never looked at the components that make up the system. Is there actually a "Kit" you can buy?

[geldartb]

i found this link its a pdf file about the dry sump. its a parts list. for retrofitting a c6 vette with a dry sump they say is superior to the z06
it appears thats a plug n play kit

http://www.aviaid.com/pdfs/ls6_z06.pdf

heres the page that has the link

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?p=1561253940

[series8217]

If you want extra power, just set up a crankcase vacuum pump and leave the wet sump in place.

I've only heard horror stories about wet sump pump cavitation when people do that. Keep in mind the pump is above the oil level. There isn't much keeping the inlet of the oil pump fed...

[geoffinbc]

Yea I could see that being a problem too. If the pressure is too low inside the crankcase then the oil pump pickup would have a very hard time pulling (or more correctly the surrounding atmosphere pushing) oil up into the pump. As long as all the pressures (or lack there of) were kept in check then everything would work fine.

[3400-95-Modified]

I've only heard horror stories about wet sump pump cavitation when people do that. Keep in mind the pump is above the oil level. There isn't much keeping the inlet of the oil pump fed...

Found this little nugget online.

Technically Speaking
How to keep your engine alive

by David Reher


You don't have to be a cardiologist like my fellow back-page columnist, Dr. Jeremy Torstveit, to appreciate the importance of blood in the human body. I've watched enough episodes of ER and Chicago Hope to know that even a momentary interruption in the flow of blood to the brain can cause permanent damage.

At the risk of repeating a clich้, I'll state categorically that oil is the lifeblood of an engine. The consequences of erratic oil delivery in a racing engine can be just as traumatic as an medical emergency. Instead of comas and strokes, the likely results are broken connecting rods and catastrophic engine failures.

I estimate that nine out of 10 connecting-rod failures are not the fault of the connecting rod but the result of a spun bearing — and the bearing failure is usually the result of an oil-system problem. If an autopsy of a blown engine reveals even the hint of a blackened crankshaft rod journal, that's strong evidence that a spun bearing was responsible.

When drag racers think about oiling systems, they usually look for ways to increase power by reducing windage and parasitic losses. That approach may be valid if you're contending for the Pro Stock championship, but it's risky business for weekend warriors and bracket racers. Reher's first rule of racing is that reliability is more important than horsepower when you have to pay your own engine repair bills.

I should point out the important distinction between wet-sump and dry-sump oil systems. In a wet-sump system, an engine's entire oil supply is contained within the oil pan; in a dry-sump system, the oil is stored in an external tank. This difference in how the two systems manage their respective oil reservoirs has huge implications.

A wet-sump system is simple, low cost, and light weight. That's why virtually every production engine in the world uses wet-sump lubrication. A dry-sump system is more complicated, more expensive, and heavier, but it offers continuous lubrication under all conditions and the promise of increased power through reduced windage.

When you consider cost and complexity, a wet-sump oil system is the logical choice for most Sportsman racers. The biggest mistake a Sportsman racer can make, however, is to try to duplicate the performance characteristics of a dry-sump using a wet-sump system. This can't be done without sacrificing reliability.

Reliability is more important than horsepower when you have to pay your own engine repair bills.

Many Sportsman racers look to Pro Stock for inspiration. In some instances, the technology used in Pro Stock is applicable to other classes — but not lubrication-system design.

Pro Stock engines are universally equipped with dry-sump oiling systems. The luxury of an external oil-storage tank allows a Pro Stock engine builder to use an oil pan the size of a small refrigerator and to install a vacuum pump that sucks the air out of the crankcase like a tornado. Pro Stock racers use lightweight lubricants and restrict the oil flow to the absolute minimum. But I couldn't recommend these tactics in good conscience to any bracket or Super eliminator racer.

Using a large-volume Pro Stock-style oil pan with a full-length sump is an invitation to disaster with a wet-sump oil system. I insist on installing an oil pan with a rear sump on every Super Series bracket racing big-block we build at Reher-Morrison Racing Engines — even if the engine will be installed in a dragster with plenty of room between its framerails for a full-length sump.

Here's why: When a car accelerates at one G, the oil stands up in the rear of the pan at a 45-degree angle. At two Gs, the oil is plastered to the back of the pan at a 66-degree angle. When the car decelerates, the oil piles up at the front of the pan, and the oil pump pickup sucks air. With a full-length sump, there is little hope of keeping the oil pump pickup covered.

The low-viscosity oil commonly used in drag racing engines has the consistency of kerosene when the engine is at operating temperature. You can see what happens to the oil in a full-length wet-sump pan by filling it with four quarts of water and rocking the pan. Tilt the pan at a 66-degree angle to simulate what happens during a two G launch and deceleration. Even baffles and trap doors can't keep the oil pump pickup submerged under hard acceleration and deceleration.

I strongly advocate using a solid windage tray to shield the oil pump in any wet-sump engine. You may sacrifice a little power with a partial solid tray compared to a full-length screen-type tray, but the oil pressure will be much more consistent if you protect the oil around the pump pickup. The turbulence inside an engine's crankcase is unimaginable when its crankshaft assembly is spinning at 7,000 rpm and its eight pistons are pumping up and down in their cylinders 56,000 times per minute. A full or partial solid windage tray isolates the oil surrounding the oil-pump pickup from this whirlwind in the crankcase.

I have seen the difference in oil pressure that a solid windage tray mounted above the oil pump can make in a wet-sump racing engine. With some full-length screen-type windage trays we've tested on the dyno, the oil pressure fluctuates as the engine accelerates. With a solid windage tray mounted above the oil pump to shelter the oil in the sump, the needle on the oil-pressure gauge hardly moves.

For similar reasons, I am not a fan of crankcase vacuum pumps on wet-sump engines. Lowering the pressure inside the crankcase with a vacuum pump can increase power because the crankshaft has less drag — just as an airplane can fly faster in thin air at high altitude than it can in denser air at low altitude. But from the standpoint of the oil pump, a little positive crankcase pressure is actually desirable because it forces oil into the pickup. Positive crankcase pressure primes the pump and helps to ensure a steady flow of oil into the pickup. When the crankcase pressure is artificially lowered with a vacuum pump, there is less pressure differential to push the oil through the pickup tube.

One of the best investments a Sportsman racer can make for a wet-sump engine is an oil accumulator, a sealed cylinder with a floating piston. Pressurized air on one side of the piston forces a reserve supply of oil into the engine if the flow from the internal oil pump is interrupted. Unfortunately, accumulators are seldom seen in drag racing. That's a pity, because they work.

You may have an oil-system problem and not even know it. Most drivers are too busy during a run to watch the oil- pressure gauge. If you've plumbed the pressure gauge with small-diameter tubing that dampens the gauge's response, you might not even see dips in the oil pressure. Try connecting the gauge with 1/4-inch inside-diameter tubing, and mount the gauge where you can see it throughout the run. You might be shocked to learn what's really happening inside your engine!

The detrimental effects of oil-pressure fluctuations are cumulative. If the pressure drops to zero when you stop after a burnout, decelerate after a run, or make the turnout at the end of the track, you have abused the bearings. The oil pressure may return to normal when you restart the engine, but you've already inflicted some damage. If you repeat the injury enough times, eventually a bearing is going to fail. And when it does, the damage will be very expensive to repair.

The oiling system is not the place for a Sportsman racer to look for power. The potential rewards are small — perhaps five or 10 horsepower under the best circumstances — but the risks are enormous. A reliable oil system is the best way to avoid a medical emergency for your engine.

[geldartb]

thanks for the novel jon. ill read that later.

[3400-95-Modified]

[Will'sFiero]

Look at the level of oil in the pan vs. the height of the oil pump. Gravity might keep the pump fed just fine in a depressurized crank case. I don't know, though... I haven't looked.

Crank case vacuum pumps also help power by improving ring seal via increased pressure difference across the rings.