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As many of you know I have an '85 GMC S-15 Jimmy, that once had a turbocahrged hybrid, whihc was fun, but was never enough. I had pulled the small port 3100 heads a few years ago to upgrade to 3400 heads, but never did get the top end bolted back on, just sat on there for a while.
Then decided recently to go complete 3400, since I had to install a new blcok, due to a couple things I saw on the Franken60 block, that I just didn't like, so why not upgrade, right?
Well as of Sunday I received a 3500 from an '06 G6, and decided that I would set it in the now empty engine bay of the truck, since I had time, and would like to see just how much it would take to make work. Then the decision was made to just use the 3500. I've kicked myself for not using the 3400 top end I had when I put the Franken60 together, since I ended up with a bunch more 3400 parts sshortly after getting it complete, that wouldn't happen this time, I'll jsut go for the big stuff now. If I find a better chassis later for the 3500, I can always pull the 3500 and install a 3400, since the mount I will be making will work with both engines.
I will be copying parts of a thread I started on www.s-series.org, so it may seem a bit like I'm starting new posts within this one.
So far I can see these new/custom parts needed:
-Driver side engine mount
-Passenger side mount, as there would be a slight difference.
-Modified oil pan to clear crossmember.
-Drilling jig for the starter (to relocate to the passenger side of the block) Won't work, since the block will not support the RWD starter
-Adaptors to use OEM belt driver accessories with the new engine, which may include a new thermostat housing.
-Custom or modified headers, to match exhaust port shape and bolt pattern. May be able to make them to use stock Y-pipe.
-EGR adaptors.
Other ideas for the swap:
-Custom dizzy to clear genIII intake manifold
-Custom intake to retain stock dizzy
Posted May 21 2007
I did however get a chance to start comparing, or rather comparing again, since it has been a few years, the blocks, and have discovered that re-drilling the starter on the other side would be MUCH more involved than I had originally remembered. So it looks like a driver side starter will need to be used, or maybe some sort of aftermarket deal for a passenger side starter, due to where the holes will need to be to use a 2.8L RWD starter.
I think for myself I will just cut and weld a new pocket onto my bell housing and use the driver side starter, as long as it doesn't interfere with the clutch mechanism. If it does I will have to look at the NVG tranny that came on the 2nd gen 2.2 trucks.
I would rather run a passenger side starter, as the exhaust will be an issue to try and fit through the driver side, due to the oil filter also being there, though an oil filter re-locate might be able to take care of that.
*edit* I was in the garage and looked at this a bit more and would have to use an oil filter relocate to run the driver side starter anyway, and will be very tight for exhaust clearance, though I think there could be enough space to sneek a down pipe past the starter.
Sorry no pics yet, hope to get some soon, once I start getting some development on this
Posted June 03 2007
Another small update. Today I purcahsed and received an '06 3500, and decided that I would set it in the engine bay of the Jimmy to see how looks and verify some ideas and thoughts I had.
I think I will be using the 3500 for this swap, though I will still develope the 3400 mounts, since the 3400 is a much more common engine right now.
After setting the engine in place, it looks as though there might be enough space on the driver side to pass teh exhaust between the starter and frame, a remote oil filter will definatly be need though. Even if a pasenger side starter was used the 3500 oil adaptor would place the filter in the crossmember, and I don't know if the S-series oil filter adaptor will work or not since the 3500 uses a different attachment method. I haven't had a chance to verify if the threads in the center oil port are the same as the older 660s.
The 3500 exhaust manifolds, while close will not work.
Using the "front" manifold on the passenger side has the outlet pointed almost directly at the engine mount. I suppose you could make some sort of box style connector there, but flow would be terible.
On the driver side, using the same manifold, it's very close, but the steering gets in the way.
The "rear" manifold is just no where near right to even try it.
So it looks like a 3500 S-series will exist, I'm about 75% leaning that way anyway, I had thought about "saving" this engine for a later project, but I can always swap a 3400 in place of this one down the road if need be.
Posted June 05 2007
Well I have some pics to show you guys, where the beginning stages are at.
The 3500:
After some diassembly:
Sitting in the vehicle, with a couple bolts threaded through the trans:
Here is a pic with the passenger side mount sitting in place, there is one bolt theraded in to hold it to the block. The pattern of the bolt bosses has two of them in the same place on this block as they are on the gen one block, though I think they are spaced a little farther apart, as I couldn't get both upper and lower bolts threaded in, I will verify this when I pull the engine back out to fab the mount(s).
The engine is sitting about an inch too high. The oil pan is resting on the crossmember. This is in a Jimmy, in a pick up, this would be about 2" too high, since the SUV has the engine sitting higher for better driveline angle.
Here is a pic of the "front manifold" being held in place on the passenger side:
Here is a pic of the same manifold on the driver side, close, but not close enough.
Here is a pic of the RWD front cover and water pump on the front of the 3500. I have to verify that bolt holes will be fine, as I have read that some have changed on the 3500. This was an extremly quick mock up Sunday night to see what it will fit and look like in the truck, which also solidified my decision to use the 3500 in the Jimmy, instead of a 3400.
The mount design I have in mind will work with both a 3400 and 3500, so for anyone wanting to get into a genIII swap in thier S-series, you'll be able to have a broader choice here.
The oil pan will need to be modified, obvoulsy, but will fit either block as well, which I will verify hopefully within the next week or so.
I'm still trying to decide on a starter solution, I think I will be using a FWD starter, which will also require a FWD flywheel, but the clutch bolt pattern is the same between FWD and RWD. If you're using an automatic, you could probably just use the flex plae that comes with the 3500. I will also need to modify the bell housing to clear the starter snout, I just have to verify that the clutch arm will not get in the way.
Then decided recently to go complete 3400, since I had to install a new blcok, due to a couple things I saw on the Franken60 block, that I just didn't like, so why not upgrade, right?
Well as of Sunday I received a 3500 from an '06 G6, and decided that I would set it in the now empty engine bay of the truck, since I had time, and would like to see just how much it would take to make work. Then the decision was made to just use the 3500. I've kicked myself for not using the 3400 top end I had when I put the Franken60 together, since I ended up with a bunch more 3400 parts sshortly after getting it complete, that wouldn't happen this time, I'll jsut go for the big stuff now. If I find a better chassis later for the 3500, I can always pull the 3500 and install a 3400, since the mount I will be making will work with both engines.
I will be copying parts of a thread I started on www.s-series.org, so it may seem a bit like I'm starting new posts within this one.
So far I can see these new/custom parts needed:
-Driver side engine mount
-Passenger side mount, as there would be a slight difference.
-Modified oil pan to clear crossmember.
-Drilling jig for the starter (to relocate to the passenger side of the block) Won't work, since the block will not support the RWD starter
-Adaptors to use OEM belt driver accessories with the new engine, which may include a new thermostat housing.
-Custom or modified headers, to match exhaust port shape and bolt pattern. May be able to make them to use stock Y-pipe.
-EGR adaptors.
Other ideas for the swap:
-Custom dizzy to clear genIII intake manifold
-Custom intake to retain stock dizzy
Posted May 21 2007
I did however get a chance to start comparing, or rather comparing again, since it has been a few years, the blocks, and have discovered that re-drilling the starter on the other side would be MUCH more involved than I had originally remembered. So it looks like a driver side starter will need to be used, or maybe some sort of aftermarket deal for a passenger side starter, due to where the holes will need to be to use a 2.8L RWD starter.
I think for myself I will just cut and weld a new pocket onto my bell housing and use the driver side starter, as long as it doesn't interfere with the clutch mechanism. If it does I will have to look at the NVG tranny that came on the 2nd gen 2.2 trucks.
I would rather run a passenger side starter, as the exhaust will be an issue to try and fit through the driver side, due to the oil filter also being there, though an oil filter re-locate might be able to take care of that.
*edit* I was in the garage and looked at this a bit more and would have to use an oil filter relocate to run the driver side starter anyway, and will be very tight for exhaust clearance, though I think there could be enough space to sneek a down pipe past the starter.
Sorry no pics yet, hope to get some soon, once I start getting some development on this
Posted June 03 2007
Another small update. Today I purcahsed and received an '06 3500, and decided that I would set it in the engine bay of the Jimmy to see how looks and verify some ideas and thoughts I had.
I think I will be using the 3500 for this swap, though I will still develope the 3400 mounts, since the 3400 is a much more common engine right now.
After setting the engine in place, it looks as though there might be enough space on the driver side to pass teh exhaust between the starter and frame, a remote oil filter will definatly be need though. Even if a pasenger side starter was used the 3500 oil adaptor would place the filter in the crossmember, and I don't know if the S-series oil filter adaptor will work or not since the 3500 uses a different attachment method. I haven't had a chance to verify if the threads in the center oil port are the same as the older 660s.
The 3500 exhaust manifolds, while close will not work.
Using the "front" manifold on the passenger side has the outlet pointed almost directly at the engine mount. I suppose you could make some sort of box style connector there, but flow would be terible.
On the driver side, using the same manifold, it's very close, but the steering gets in the way.
The "rear" manifold is just no where near right to even try it.
So it looks like a 3500 S-series will exist, I'm about 75% leaning that way anyway, I had thought about "saving" this engine for a later project, but I can always swap a 3400 in place of this one down the road if need be.
Posted June 05 2007
Well I have some pics to show you guys, where the beginning stages are at.
The 3500:
After some diassembly:
Sitting in the vehicle, with a couple bolts threaded through the trans:
Here is a pic with the passenger side mount sitting in place, there is one bolt theraded in to hold it to the block. The pattern of the bolt bosses has two of them in the same place on this block as they are on the gen one block, though I think they are spaced a little farther apart, as I couldn't get both upper and lower bolts threaded in, I will verify this when I pull the engine back out to fab the mount(s).
The engine is sitting about an inch too high. The oil pan is resting on the crossmember. This is in a Jimmy, in a pick up, this would be about 2" too high, since the SUV has the engine sitting higher for better driveline angle.
Here is a pic of the "front manifold" being held in place on the passenger side:
Here is a pic of the same manifold on the driver side, close, but not close enough.
Here is a pic of the RWD front cover and water pump on the front of the 3500. I have to verify that bolt holes will be fine, as I have read that some have changed on the 3500. This was an extremly quick mock up Sunday night to see what it will fit and look like in the truck, which also solidified my decision to use the 3500 in the Jimmy, instead of a 3400.
The mount design I have in mind will work with both a 3400 and 3500, so for anyone wanting to get into a genIII swap in thier S-series, you'll be able to have a broader choice here.
The oil pan will need to be modified, obvoulsy, but will fit either block as well, which I will verify hopefully within the next week or so.
I'm still trying to decide on a starter solution, I think I will be using a FWD starter, which will also require a FWD flywheel, but the clutch bolt pattern is the same between FWD and RWD. If you're using an automatic, you could probably just use the flex plae that comes with the 3500. I will also need to modify the bell housing to clear the starter snout, I just have to verify that the clutch arm will not get in the way.
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