anyone actually complete 3X00 hybrid with a dizzy?

[merlot566jka]

ive found some junk in the archives of several forums that shows basicly people are giving a shot at what i wanted to do. put the 3X00 top end on the 3.4 outa a camaro. BTW, this is for a fiero. i already have the 3.4 in with my ported and polished iron heads. no bueno. i dont like em, and i can see where i need to go from here. but one small snag, im in the navy, they just took me outa VA where my car is and landed me in alaska. WTF! lol. but only for 4 more months. I need this info so i can get everything going when i get back. better to plan now than get there and have no idea what im going to do. im sure i can get some 3X00 heads up here to start the work on and just ship em back to va when im done.

(hopefully we all understand its an iron head 3.4 being swapped for the alum gen III 3X00 heads, intakes and needed accesories.)

these are my issues that i never saw resolved,

keep the distibutor or swap to dis.

keep the distributor and make new upper intake manifold.

actual compression ratio, not a bunch of 'i think' or 'i dont know the real thing but i think its like 17:1' (cmon, you lose 24cc and everyone thinks ur gonna have a diesel. get real) i know im going to have to measure everything on my specific aplication, but again, who has done it, what did u find for the swept clearance, squash volume, etc etc.

removing material from the combustion chamber to unshroud the valves, modify the swirl patern and remove cc's to make a compliant CR.

push rod length, ive heard the 3X00 has diferent length rods for intake and ex. some say u can use stock pushrods from the 3X00, others say no. WHO HAS ACTUALL DONE IT? any one actuall measure the length. i know no one can give me an exact number because every engine is goingn to have to be measured anyways, but what i want to know is who has actuall tried either way?


any answeres and help would be great. i may not respond imedietly, forgive me, alaska sux for internet access. esp on annette island!

[geoffinbc]

Most people swap to DIS. It is easy and your ECM will run a DIS module with a little bit of wiring. CR will be in the area of 12:1. Shitty for pump gas. I recommend pistons. You would not be able to remove enough material to lower it. Plus if you start removing the quench areas you really start to mess up the chamber. Yes you MUST get different pushrods. The problem comes with the 2 different lifter heights combined with the 2 different heads. There was never a 3X00 motor with flat tappet lifters. Hence there are no pushrods for it so you need to buy some.

[boostedrs]

i have completed the swap (almost lol , need to install motor and fire it still)
the only way it is possible to do is with a gen 2 manifold and a custom upper plenum.( i never actually tried using a stock gen 2 uim but i dont think it would have cleared)

[merlot566jka]

good info beterthanyou. u seem to be the first one to reply with all of my questions. and u always have a strait forward no bs answer...thank you!

boost, awesom...so somone is actually there. you used the gen2 heads? i could fab up an upper plenum if need be for the gen 3. from what i read the gen 3 is the best way to go. well ive also read gobs of stuff on the newer stuff on 3500 ect ect. not interested in that right now. what kind of flow difference is there between gen1, 2, and 3 (heads)?? i know between 2 and 3 there was a significant flow increase over 2 with the 3, that was my main interest in the 3. im N/A for the time being, so my interest is in flow at high rpm.
i assume u kept the dizzy? what did you do for the compression? what about the push rods...in the gen 2 is there any need for different rods due to the splayed valves?

another bit of qustions for anyone. has anyone flow benched the gen 2 and gen 3 heads? im good friends with francis from truleo.com. he made my intake, headers and is working with me on the tunning, anyways he has flowed the stock iron heads. not impressive i must say. they dont flow for performance. after gutting the heads as much as i could i think i have wasted time on the iron heads. can the gen2 heads be modified to flow what the gen 3 heads do?

[Guest]

The lower intake manifolds for both genII and III cover the area where the dizzy occupies, the genII is closer to working, but still interferes with the dizzy. The genIII LIM actually cover part of the dizzy/oil pump drive hole.

I have ideas on how to fit a Dizzy with the stock genIII LIM, but have not found the parts I need to complete it, yet.

I swapped to DIS with my last build, since it was easiest for me, even though I needed to build a custom external trigger wheel to do so.

If you're going to attempt to get out of the genII heads what the genIII already does, it makes many times more sense to just start with the genIII heads.

[merlot566jka]

raven, youre right, it doesnt make sense to go with gen 2 when u can get the flow you want outa the gen 3.

that being said, i think ill push off my alum head adventure to another time when i have more time. lol. ive read some intesting posts about what the iron head can actually flow. im sure with work on them i can get what im after. i didnt even flow the ones i ported. i didnt even work the bowl that much. im sure if i set down with the heads and have another go at them i can get something outa them. im gonna do some more research on the iron heads and try to find someone who has been able to get good flow onn them. for the time being its just not practical for me to start swapping to dis and trying to get the CR right. any one know anything bout the iron heads?

[Guest]

Keep reseraching the genIII head swap, COMPLETLY worth it in every aspect.

[geoffinbc]

Hey Raven do you have a picture of a Gen III manifold turned 180* to try and fit it on a RWD motor? I can easily cut and weld the manifold if need be. I am contemplating a Gen III top end for my S-10 but certian factors, like the LIM and dizzy problem, will steer my descision.

[Guest]

Hey Raven do you have a picture of a Gen III manifold turned 180* to try and fit it on a RWD motor? I can easily cut and weld the manifold if need be. I am contemplating a Gen III top end for my S-10 but certian factors, like the LIM and dizzy problem, will steer my descision.

I do, I just have to rehost them.

The issue with turning the manifold 180* is the top of the timing cover where it has that tab, that you're supposed to bolt a flat piece of metal to to retain the timing cover when you replace the water pump, yeah I know, I don't do that either. That tab has to be removed, since my grandfather had a mill, we set it up and machined it away, a grinder could also be used, since there's no real tight tolerance to this. This is for use with the RWD S-10 timing cover.

The dizzy is the only real issue, if you want to use one.

This didn't really effect me, but depending on how you have your belt driven accessories layed out, the thermostat housing might get in the way.

[merlot566jka]

so if the manifold is turned 180* it will clear the dizzy? the tab on the timing cover on the fiero is useless as far as i know, i dont what its there for. do the ports line up? hell this would be cake on the fiero.... raven you have pics? can you email them to me, merlot566jka@yahoo.com

[Guest]

The dizzy DOES NOT clear the LIM, no matter which way it is installed, if it were that simple I would be running a Dizzy right now, along with umpteen thousand other people who are too afraid to convert to DIS or pioneer a dizzy that does clear, or intake manifold, I've looked at both ways. Modifying the dizzy seems to be less work, but harder to find the parts to do so. Creating a manifold that will clear is loads more work but the materials are easily found.

At one time I had looked at redirecting where each port runs to on on the lower. Basically instead of the port from the UIM running accross the LIM, to the opposite side, having that same port redirected to the port beside that goes into the head. If that makes sense? The runners would become extremly short and though the fit to the pushrods and such would be close, it can work. The only reason I didn't persue this is because I would then again have to creat a custom fuel rail, or extremly modify the stock piece, because the dizzy also interferes with the fuel rail, and the #5 (when the LIM is reversed) injector. I decided with that much work, a scratch built LIM and fuel rail that is optimally built would be easier and decided to actually go back to a modified dizzy, because it seems to be the least amount of work, and then I can actually see if the dizzy does help me pick up more power like I beleive it will, in a more fair comparison.

[merlot566jka]

ok so scrap the dizzy. whats it take to convert to dis? which ecm do i use. i have a great deal of expeirence with the dis outa an 88 z24. would it be as simple as getting the ecm and wiring harness and connecting it? the 3.4 block has all the provisions for the dis system. i belive in 88 all that was needed (additional to what the fiero ecm already has) was the crank position sensor and the knock sensor. of course the icm, coil packs and coolant temp sensors. using this sounds great, but why stop there, what about the sequential injection rather than the bank fire...how much more difficult would that be? of course we step into pcm range and obd2...which from my expierence with my vette, going to obd2 from obd1 can present problems...bcm, tranny wiring, abs, airbags, etc etc.

basicly what im getting at is what is the easiest way to get the dis with what i already have? im usuing the crane 272, so no cam sensor can be used (there is no tooth on the front bearing of the cam to trigger the sensor!) i have the coil packs, icm from 1 of my 3.4s. i also dont have any provisions on my headers for the egr, so i think the pre digital egr ecm would be best. what has everyone else used?

[Guest]

Well it sounds since you don't want to use EGR, that '7730 used on a genII 2.8 from 1987 to 1989 with a 1988 or 1989 2.8 code, or if it's '87 the Speed Density update PROM.

For best results, you should tune the code, there are sites and resources around that will help with this.

SFI is overrated, at least for an application such as yours. and as you have already said it's a much more difficult swap to accomplish.

I used a 7730 for my hybrid and swpa into my Jimmy and whan I used an N/A chip for initial firing, it was an '88 2.8L PROM.

[geoffinbc]

Raven.

For what I have in mind I will only be using the lower 3400 manifold. Maybe this will make it easier, I don't know. I will also not be using the 3400 fuel rails, or any fuel rails for that matter.

What I am debating is creating a 3X00 TBI manifold. Pics would help right now since I have not mocked up these parts yet.

[Guest]

Raven.

For what I have in mind I will only be using the lower 3400 manifold. Maybe this will make it easier, I don't know. I will also not be using the 3400 fuel rails, or any fuel rails for that matter.

What I am debating is creating a 3X00 TBI manifold. Pics would help right now since I have not mocked up these parts yet.

Yes, a TBI manifold, modeled loosly from the genI TBI manifold would work, since that rear most runner would come from the port, and almost immediatly be directed forward towards the TBI.

For the stock genIII LIM to clear the dizzy, the entire #1 runner, which when turned 180* for the longitudal set-up becomes runner for the #6 cylinder, has to be completly cut out, I used to have pics, but I think they got lost in a reformat, or possibly when my camera was stolen last summer.

I have thought about maybe even starting with an OEM TBI manifold and seeing if I could mate the two, but then realized it would probably be much easier to just start with the genIII lower and make the rest from scratch.

I am not currently at home right now or I would rehost my pics with some new ones, hopefully later this week I'll get some time to do so, on the new server.