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Making a GEN I hydraulic roller cam

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  • Making a GEN I hydraulic roller cam

    I'm pasting this from a Fiero forum, so some things might not make sense:

    Well. I was determined! Since my engine block was practically brand new (30k miles), I was gonna make some simple modifications and see if I can get a hydraulic roller cam setup. I'm using a 3.4 GM crate engine. I had it installed a few years ago by Pisa Corp. It should be pretty much the exact same for a stock 2.8. I first did some research to see how hard it was to get a roller cam for the engine. I was recommended to a local company called Delta Camshafts, which just happened to be located in downtown Tacoma. They told me they could make the camshaft, but they couldn't help me with the lifters. So I did some research. I called pretty much any camshaft manufacturer in the country. I was hoping I could find a set of small block chevy hydraulic roller lifters with a detachable link bar. No luck. I guess a few companies had made roller lifters for a gen I 60 degree V6 in the past, but nobody made them currently. So ventured out and bought the cheapest set of SBC hyd. roller lifters that I could find that were sold in pairs. (SLP-HT5000RA from Summit at about $54 per pair). I bought six of them, and when I got them, I took a gander at them. I looked to see exactly how much shorter the link bars had to be to fit in the V6's bores. I came up with approximately 0.58 inches. I also did a test to see exactly how much of them ended up hitting the bottom of the intake manifold. I determined that with alot of cutting, welding, and grinding, it crazy nonsense just my work!!!

    First, I found out I had to grind alittle bit of metal off of both cylinder heads in order for cylinders 3 and 4's lifter's link bars to clear the head. About 5-10 minutes with the die grinder, and I had that fixed (sorry no picts - may get some later).

    Second, I looked a the crowns of the lifters. There was no way to dissassemble the lifters to keep debris out of them, since the link bar rivets were pressed in, and I would just butcher them trying to remove and install them. So I left the guts in. I began to grind away at the lifter crowns to remove enough metal to clear the intake manifold when the lifters meet the top of the cam lobes. This was incredibly tiresome. It took approximately 20 minutes of grinding per lifter. I tried the best I could to try and not get the lifters too hot by going to fast. Actually, I think 20 minutes per lifter was actually too fast, I did get some of them alittle hotter than I wanted. But it looks like all of them turned out to be alright. Since I didn't take out all the lifter guts, I took special care in cleaning all the excess metal out from the lifter. Since tollerances are so tight, there should have been slim to none of the metal shavings being able to get into the lifter. I made sure I cleaned them out as best as I could with some solvent. I tested them also to make sure they weren't binding up, and they all seemed to move very smoothly.

    Now was the time to tackle the link bars. I had to shorten them quite a bit to make them work. So I measured to approximately 0.58 inches and began to cut away. Since I absolutely stink ass at welding, I gave them to one of my co-workers to weld. So he threw an even bead on them and ground up the excess. I gave them a stress test and all of them seemed to be fairly strong.

    Well, I first did all the modifying to the first pair of lifters. I figured, if this one failed to work, I could send the other 5 back for a refund. But I tossed that first one in the block. I threw my stock cam back in and did a clearance test. All seemed just dandy! The lifter cleared the intake manifold. The linkbar cleared the cylinder head. The linkbar was also just the right length. So I did the same to the other 5 pairs.

    After that, it turned out that 3 of the 6 pairs of lifter's link bars will still just a boob too long. I guess my cutting wasn't as accurate as I wanted it to be. I ended up having a custom welding shop cut the link bars again and shorten up some more.

    Finally, all 6 pairs are properly modified and ready to go!

    Time for a camshaft! I wanted something that would pull to about 6000 rpm. So I wanted something that still kept a good idle, good drivability, but also greatly improved midrange power! I waddled back over to Delta Camshafts. We looked at my stock cam and stock 60 degree roller cam. Sure enough, the roller cam will work easily in the non-roller block. Bearing sizes are the same, bearing and lobe placements are the same. Distributor gears are the same. Only thing was different was the method the gear bolts on. Since the roller cam was a single bolt, and the flat tappet cam used 3 bolts, a new timing set was in order. So I had them order me up a new timing set for the roller cam. I also wanted a custom grind for my new cam. I informed him on my build, and what I expected. I kept it realistic, so this made it easy for him to grind up. He had a blank core in stock, and told me he'd grind it the next day, and it should be done the day after. Bam!! Camshaft's done!! I now have a roller cam with .467/.488 valve lift with 1.5 rockers. 218/226 @ 0.050 duration. This should easily work the way I want it to! So what was the charge on this fantastic custom grind? I walked in expecting to pay $300-500 easily for the cam. Holy Crap!!!! $135!!!! These guys are awesome!!!!!

    So anyway. All I had to do was buy a $5 cam gear bolt. I'm gonna have to set up a cam button to prevent walking. I haven't installed it yet, since my engine is still getting machined. But it should work. The biggest thing I'm worried about are the welds. I'm fearing that they might crack and break. They don't get put into any stress, but they could still crack from the vibration. As long as those hold up, everything should work just fine. All the oil recesses are in the proper spots, so everything else should be fine. Here's the picts:

    http://216.240.155.171/dfireweb/Smeg/Camshaft/
    1991 GMC Syclone #449 - Stock
    1988 Pontiac Fiero GT - 3.4L HT GM crate engine
    2002 Yamaha V-Max - It go fast

  • #2
    Does he have any more blanks?

    Crane had 9 last time i checked but you pay full custom grind price ($400+)
    Past Builds;
    1991 Z24, 3500/5 Spd. 275WHP/259WTQ 13.07@108 MPH
    1989 Camaro RS, ITB-3500/700R4. 263WHP/263WTQ 13.52@99.2 MPH
    Current Project;
    1972 Nova 12.73@105.7 MPH

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    • #3
      Non sfi blanks are no problem. Its the SFI part that screws most people.
      Ben
      60DegreeV6.com
      WOT-Tech.com

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm not sure if he still has any. I'm sure if he doesn't, he can get some easily. Here's their website. I'm sure you can call him and find out.

        1991 GMC Syclone #449 - Stock
        1988 Pontiac Fiero GT - 3.4L HT GM crate engine
        2002 Yamaha V-Max - It go fast

        Comment


        • #5
          Say goodbye to your lifters on one bank. They dont' have a primary feed which means little to no oil.

          Gen 3 blocks were modified to give the lifters on both banks primary oil feeds so they wouldn't starve.

          good luck with that.

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          • #6
            Explain how it wouldn't starve the new lifters anymore than they would starve the stock flat tappet lifters.
            1991 GMC Syclone #449 - Stock
            1988 Pontiac Fiero GT - 3.4L HT GM crate engine
            2002 Yamaha V-Max - It go fast

            Comment


            • #7
              very true. i believe SBC's on one side and buick 3.8's on the other.
              Andy

              sigpic

              fastest 1/8: 10.19@ 67.17
              fastest 1/4: 16.16@ 82.70

              62mm TB, 1.6 roller tip rockers, Ostrich 2.0, UD pulley, TB heater bypass, K&N, 180* stat, No cat, 99Grand AM dual cooling fans. 4T65E swap FDR 3.69, EP LSD, F.A.S.T. transmission controller, TransGo shift kit.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thats a good mod to know.... I love it when people do some custom work. Its part of tuning.


                spend another 50 bucks and crower made it for you.

                I hate that cus its always went you do something yourself that you find out someone already makes it.

                66208-12 Part number of roller lifters go to www.crower.com You would be suprised they make quite a bit for this engine. Oh they also sell the bronze distributor gears....
                Last edited by ignoreance; 12-23-2006, 05:08 AM.

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                • #9
                  It is not the lifters he is going to starve it is the crank. In a gen I block the oil passes through the lifter galley before it goes to the crank. Stock lifters have a clearanced body to allow the majority of the oil to pass by. Any lifter for a priority main feed block would not have this provision. So you will end up starving the bottom end of the block.

                  It may be possible to drill and plumb a hose from the rear of the engine past the lifter galley to create a priority main feed block and safely use roller lifters. It may have been even easier to use stock roller lifters and maybe make the anti rotation bar work.

                  But it is of no concern these kind of experiments are what helps everyone.

                  Oldsmoble blocks were non priority main feed blocks just like our ealry gen I and II engines. Perhaps there is a set of roller lifters for that engine that may provide a solution. But I have no idea on the lifter size of that motor.
                  1993 EXT. CAB, 3.4L V6 TBI, 5spd manual. Sonoma
                  1990 4Door, 3.2L V6 TBI, 5spd manual. 4X4. Trooper
                  Because... I am, CANADIAN

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                  • #10
                    First, thanks for doing all this work, documenting it and sharing with the community. What you've done is important.

                    I'm not trying to be a wet blanket here, but one other thing to think about is upper end oiling. Just because the lifter will physically fit in a bore and can be modified not to interfere with any other part of the motor, does not mean the lifters will properly route oil to the top end.

                    A friend of mine had an Iron Duke race motor that kept breaking valve springs and the springs would also lose temper and permit valve float. Puzzling problem. Long story short, the lifters he selected (supposedly made for Iron Dukes) were not routing enough oil from the lifter bore to the inside of the lifter and hence the pushrod, rocker, etc. Little or no oil (which the upper end needs for cooling as much as for lubrication) was getting to the top end and the springs (which make heat as they work) were just getting toasted.

                    The problem was there was some misaliignment of oiling paths at the juncture of the lifter bore and the lifter itself.

                    The solution in this case turned out to be using a surface grinder to remove material from one side of the lifter in one narrow area to create a path from the oil supply hole in the lifter bore to the oil hole in the lifter. Problem solved.

                    The point is that while I think the work you've done is very cool, (kudos to you my friend!) pay attention to the oiling issues that I and others have mentioned and do as much checking and experimenting as you can before you fire it up the first time. Then watch the motor closely at start up and finally if you would be so kind, report your results here.

                    Thanks for all your time and effort,
                    sg99
                    He who dies with the most toys is still dead.

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                    • #11
                      Curtis (turboZ24) has converted his genII to roller through crower. they know what's going on. or PM Crutis and ask.
                      Andy

                      sigpic

                      fastest 1/8: 10.19@ 67.17
                      fastest 1/4: 16.16@ 82.70

                      62mm TB, 1.6 roller tip rockers, Ostrich 2.0, UD pulley, TB heater bypass, K&N, 180* stat, No cat, 99Grand AM dual cooling fans. 4T65E swap FDR 3.69, EP LSD, F.A.S.T. transmission controller, TransGo shift kit.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Do the oil holes line up in the SBC with your block? I know they don't line up compared to a gen 3 roller.
                        Ben
                        60DegreeV6.com
                        WOT-Tech.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by torq455 View Post
                          Curtis (turboZ24) has converted his genII to roller through crower. they know what's going on. or PM Crutis and ask.
                          curtis is running solid roller lifters, not hydralic.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Sorry for the late reply.

                            I did check with Crower. Crower makes a solid roller cam and lifters, but no hydraulic. Since I don't want to have to R&R my intake manifold and valve covers every year, I made my own hydraulic ones instead.

                            The oiling grooves and the oiling ports in the new lifters are in the exact same spot as the stock lifters. The lifter sits alittle taller, so some custom pushrods will be in order. The only thing that should change the way the engine and lifters are oiled, the new lifters don't have the groove on the lower half of the body to allow oiling of the cam lobes, which is needed on a flat tappet lifter. The roller lifter isn't gonna require nearly as much oil on the lobes themselves as a flat tappet cam, so this shouldn't be a problem. This will however allow for a higher oil pressure to be fed to the lifter itself. The oil ports for the lifters themselves are all facing the same direction. But it really shouldn't matter. With the entire oil passage being completely filled with oil and pressurized, it won't matter which direction the ports are facing, oil pressure will still be available at all the ports. It is indeed Pascal's law of hydraulics. That should be the only
                            1991 GMC Syclone #449 - Stock
                            1988 Pontiac Fiero GT - 3.4L HT GM crate engine
                            2002 Yamaha V-Max - It go fast

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Actually, the times I have pulled the motor apart for some other work, the lash settings on the rockers had changed very little if any at all. If you have a completely roller setup (roller lifters, roller fulcrum and tip rockers), it seems to work out fine.
                              Curtis
                              91\' Turbo Z24
                              http://www.turboz24.com

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