High Power Dreams!!!

[ss_stealth]

Hey all, uber-newbie to the forum here.

Last November I acquired a '92 Camaro RS. It's got the 3.1L MPFI LHO in it. I've driven it around and coupled to it's 700-R4 AT it's no faster than my '94 Subaru Legacy! I've waxed and waned over whether I should do a V8 swap but my budget may keep me from doing that -- not to mention the complexity of the operation!

I've read enough of you alls' forum squawkery to give me hope for high power in small packages so I'm leaning more towards modding my LHO.



I read the following from '3.1 hopup':

Here is what I would recommend.

Mild combo:

3100 pistons (9.6 CR)
3400-style heads/intake (1996+ 3400, or 2000+ 3100)
Mild performance cam (Crane H260 or equivalent)
62mm TB
Headers

This should get you an easy 200 HP. The late 3100?s (2000+) with the 3400 top end stuff were rated 170-175 HP stock. Throw in the above parts (mainly heads) with a good ECM tune, and 200 should be easy. This combo would be very streetable.

For a more aggressive build, add the following:
3.1 Camaro iron-head pistons (~11.? CR)
More aggressive cam (Crane H272 or equivalent, maybe solid cam)
Ported heads and intake

...With the more agressvie build, you should be able to get ~220 HP. This combo would still be very streetable...

Marty


I'd like to make upwards of 400bHP with forced induction -- thinking turbocharging because of the broader aftermarket and tunability. I can't imagine getting 100hp/L with a turbo is out of the question for any engine. Furthermore, cars like the Mitsubishi EVO8 are getting nearly 150hp/L. I do realize that the lack of 4valves/cylinder, VVTL, and engine management that the GM 660's have may prove to be HUGELY limiting (is that an understatemnet or what?).

I've been playing with SuperchargersOnline.com's calculator (http://www.superchargersonline.com/hp_calculator.asp?) and it's telling me that I'd need a baseoutput of 200hp, 18psi of boost, 96 octane fuel, AND a three core intercooler to break into the 400hp range!

The chances of me hitting 200hp on a low enough compression to then boost it by nearly 20psi are slim-to-none the way I'm seeing it. But I wear glasses so I don't see everything so clearly to begin with!

I looked at the specs for Crane's H-272 cam. My compression ratio fits. But I don't like the RPM range: 2000-5000. I'd like to break over the 5,200 RPM range so that I can start making some real power. Of course, I dont' know if even the GenIII heads are capable of supporting flow for a boosted AND high revving motor!?!

[ss_stealth]

(1) First things first, I will need to operate on my LHO the famous 3x00 top swap! Most threads I've read concern front wheel drive vehicles. My Camaro is REAR. Are there any snags I should be weary about?

(2) The Gen3 heads aparently raise my static compression ratio to over 11:1 !!! Not good for boost and pump gas! Will I have to go with custom pistons? Or perhaps a beefy gasket and carving out my combustion chambers will suffice?

(3) My computer. What gives here? Will it flip out once boost is applied. I also question it's ability to handle detonation and whatnot.

(4) Should I worry about hood clearence with the newer top???


(5) SHOULD I JUST BE A WUSS AND SWAP IN THE V8? I still havent' heard back from all of my V8 part sources so I don't have a Grand Total cost on the swap yet. I imagine it ranging between $1000 - $3000 depending on how much I can haggle and trade. Even still, the old IROC-Z power plants only ever put out 220-245hp. They can easily be tuned to over 300hp but that's added cost ontop of the swap. If I can pull 220~ from the engine I have now and then boost the bajeejees out of it then I'll be happy. I'd turbo the v8 f.y.i. as well -- but again, added startup cost of swapping!

[6SPEED84Z28]

if you need headers for your camaro with the iron heads i build them check out the thirdgen.org v6 board. i also offer ported heads and custom chips to go with them. i am also in development of a turbo system for these cars. it shoud be out in the spring. with ported iron heads my well worn out motor made 140 hp at the wheels on a mustang dyno. so with 2 mods i have flywheel horsepower at the wheels. with a fresh motor and a cam to match the heads it should do a lot better.

[Guest]

Yes there are some issues when swapping to the genIII top end, such as:

Ignition, a distributer will not clear the genII or III lower intakes, the number 4 runner (when the intake is turned around for logitudily mounted application) is in the way of the base of the distributer. I had my grandfather custom build a front mounted crank trigger, this is where using a 4th gen F-body 3.4 is best, since there is already a place in the block for a crank trigger.
I'm not too familar with the Camaro front (timing) cover, but on my S-10 engine, there was a tab that needed to be machined off (could use a grinder if need be).
Throttle body and related linkages will need to be adapted or customized, I have thought about using a Beretta throttle cable, but right now I modified the linkage to use my stock throttle cable.
Coolant hoses and related will need rerouting, at least for the top end. I eventually drilled out and retapped the coolant sensor port and had my heater return hose return here, and then used a brass bushing for the coolant sensor into the OEM heater hose return.
Hood clearance is not an issue, The intake in my truck is 1" shorter than the original carb with the air cleaner, and believe it's about the same hight as the longitudily mounted MPFI intake. Approx 9" from the block surface at the lifter valley to the highest point of the intake.
Exhaust will need to be custom for best results, the genIII heads use a D shaped exhaust port, which is at least part of what makes them flow better.
EGR will need to be adapted.

I'm sure there is more, but I'll leave it at that for now.

[geoffinbc]

If you have high horsepower dreams I bet a 350 swap would be cheeper and more reliable than a 400hp 3.1L.

60*V's are great motors and would be a practical choice for an engine not much more that 300hp. But 400 is pushing it. I know its been done and is still being done today. But drivability must be suffering.

Just to contradict myself a bit... There was a Camaro with a 3.4L that made damn near 400hp and 400lbs of torque and as far as I know it is still going. But he was also running it on racing fuel and ALOT of boost. But it was done and worked well.

[ss_stealth]

Thanks guys,

'6Speed': that sounds like cool sh--stuff you're working out over there. What have you done about the intake manifold? I've heard crappy things about it, definitely an achilles heel.

The Raven: Nothing sounds as easy as it looks...or something! But thanks for letting me know what I'd be in for!

'Better': Yeah, I agree, 400hp is pushing it. 300 horses is satisfactory but it's nothing to really brag about these days -- in my opinion. I mean, I'm sure it's spanking most hopped up Civics and friends but it seems to be the norm in the higher levels of car performance. I'm thinking ENZO.


I'm sure to be back here. But as of now I need to get my money situated and see how quickly I can mash a V8 into the ol' RS!

Thanks again!

[1QUICKHATCH]

one thing to remember with the 6 is that it will weigh alot less than the 8!!

[geoffinbc]

Unless he gets an all aluminum V8. which all LS engines are.

[ss_stealth]

I've considered the weight thing. I've read that a base RS Camaro weighed in at 3100lbs at the curb while an IROC-Z pushed 3275lbs. The weight difference isn't really a big deal to me. Unless I was trying to break 4 seconds 0-60 on a 400hp LHO, maybe THEN I would smile when I thought about all 175 pounds I saved. But, if I could get twice as much power from the V8 then I wouldn't worry about the weight.

Is it true that every 100lbs you lose off your car will gain you 0.1sec in the 1/4 mile?

'Better': LS? Are you referring to the LS1's and 6's? Even though they are all aluminum, would they still be lighter than my iron block 60* with aluminum Gen3 heads and intake? Do you have actual evidence or is this just a hunch. Not that I'm going to plunk down thousands for an LS1, I'm just curious.

[6SPEED84Z28]

i have not done anything myself with the intake. i have looked at doing spacers for a while or building a box type plenum like the lingenfelter superram a freind of mine did but to my knowledge has not yet tried it. the middle and bottom is decent it is that first sharp turn in the upper plenum that is the big problem.

[geoffinbc]

An LS motor weighs under 400lbs when fulley dressed and ready to run.

I believe this is the same weight as an iron head 660. So what would aluminum heads reduce weight by. Maybe 40lbs at most?

[RacerX11]

I measured 30 pounds for the pair when I weighed my iron vs. aluminum heads.

The numbers sound about right, based on what the Fiero guys have seen. So round up and figure a 50 pound weight advantage for the V6 over the V8. Hardly worth mentioning.

The LS-1 may sound like a lot of money, but you get an instant 350 flywheel HP, with 400 HP a couple of bolt-ons away. I am a big V6 guy, but I also know how potent the LS engines are. IMHO, you would be hard pressed to get 400 reliable, streetable HP out of the V6 without paying a lot more than what the LS-1 swap would run you.

Marty

[ss_stealth]

Good stuff people!

Marty: Do you really think the LS1 swap would be cheaper? I mean, just the engine (new I'm talking) is thousands of dollars. If I was lucky, then I could probably find a used LS1 with transmission for $2500. Then I'd have to rig it into my Camaro. I've seen conversion mounts but they don't come cheap.

However, I could probably get an L98 (the older 5.7L TPI motor) for under a grand with my LHO trade in. That's the route I've been looking at. Of course, that power plant only cranked 245hp/345tq at its best! Yet, that's still way more power than I'd get from putting a grand into my V6.

Of course I can imagine getting the L98 up to speed with an LS1 might not be worth the $1500 saved.

grrrr...

I suppose it's really just a function of time. I work for wages (got the two part time McJobs like most college students) so time = money anyway I look at it. I could start tuning the LHO for turbo-charging now or I could save up for a "short" time for the L98 OR I could save up for a longer period of time for the LS1!

[TurboZ24]

I weighed my 3.1 at one point, ready to run, all brackets on, all accessories except the P/S pump and it was 320 lbs (Yes, I have iron heads).

[RacerX11]

If you want to buy a new Ls-1 engine, it will be pricey. If you are happy with a low mileage used combo, things are looking brighter. I have seen LS-1/T56 drivetrains that went for around $2500 from wrecked cars with less than 20K miles. I would consider this pretty close to a new engine.

Swapping the LS-1 into a 3rd gen F-body isn?t very hard. Either Hot Rod, Car Craft, or Chevy High Performance did a write-up in the last 4 months about just such a swap. From reading the article, the swap is relatively straightforward. The two big areas (relatively) were modifying the crossmember to clear the LS-1 AC compressor, and relocating the transmission crossmember back several inches. Other than that, the 3rd gen engine compartment is roomy compared to the 4th gens.

Any of the other mods required to support an LS-1 in a 3rd gen (bigger fuel pump, etc.) will apply to a 400 HP V6 as well.

With the LS-1, you get great power, its already tuned, it starts cold, and its drivable. You don?t have to worry about a clutch, a tranny that will hold the power, etc. I garrantee that going with a V6, it will cost you more in the long run to get the reliable, drivable power of a stock LS-1.

Have you priced what a good rebuild to support 400 HP on a V6 would be? Forged pistons will run you around $550, good rods about $400, good rings $100. Right there you are at a grand, before even throwing in the usual machine work for a rebuild, any other parts (bearings, oil pump, etc.). My guess is you will be looking at $2500 just to build the engine to support the power. After that you need to add turbo parts, engine management, and drivetrain components.

Take a look at Curtis? page, and his parts list. Is isn?t hard to get prices for the components he used, and add up what it would cost to duplicate his setup (which is pretty close to what you would need).

Doing an LS-1 into a FWD car is a lot harder, so it makes more sense to build up the V6. But when you have a chassis that will easily accept the LS-1 without much fab work, it makes it a much more attractive option.

Anyway, just my opinion.

Marty