High Power Dreams!!!

[geoffinbc]

Plus... Think if you add the turbos to an LS engine

[ss_stealth]

Marty: I agree that the V6 build up is a LOT of money. But as you pointed out, an LS1 costs about the same! Also, is it possible to use a program like GMPCM or winbin as engine management for a high boost turbo app.? That'd be a huge money saver there.

I think I will most likely go with the V8. If I don't trade or sell my LHO in the process, I may keep it for another project


'Betterthanyou': You and I...on the same wavelength my friend

Thanks for the input you guys. I've got more questions pertaining to my LHO but they'll have to be for other threads.

[RacerX11]

But that's just it...the LS-1 doesn't cost about the same. The LS-1 may seem like more upfront, but the LS-1 will end up costing you a lot less in the long run, HP for HP. You are probably looking at spending twice as much for the V6 route. Which would you rather spend, $3000 up front, or $6000 over a couple years?

I believe GMPCM does support modification of the Turbo Grand Prix code, which is what you would want to use for a boosted application.

Marty

[ss_stealth]

Marty: How much would it cost to modify the LS engine? I'm assuming that the costs for new conrods and pistons, cams, and other modifiers all run about the same. If I did go with a V8, I'll probably re-evaluate my power goals - thinking in the 500-600hp range.

Also, what do you think of the LT engines? I've heard of a lot of hot rodders suping up LT1's as a lower cost alternative to the LS1.

[RacerX11]

I'm not sure on internal components. As far as bolt-ons, the LS-1 is a very friendly engine to performance enhancers. With a cam, ported heads, and headers you are looking at around 450HP at the crank. Going a little wilder, you can get 500. I think to push it much past 500, you would need to start chaning the stock shortblock parts, and the price tag would start climbing pretty quick. The best place to look for info is www.LS1.com I think your biggest problem with going for 500-600 HP is that the driveline parts (clutch, rearend, axles, etc.) to handle this much power will start to get expensive.

The LT-1 engines are OK. They are the best of the true small blocks, but IMO, they don't hold a candle to the LS-1. A stock F-body LT-1 will put out ~260-270 WHP. I have friends who have several grand worth of head, cam, and intake mods on LT-1's who are only putting down about 10 more WHP than my stock LS-1.

If the choice is between an LT-1 and an L98 or other small block, go for the LT-1. If the option of an LS-1 comes up, it would be my choice hands down.

Marty

[6SPEED84Z28]

camshafts, rods and pistons all cost more on an LS1. 500 hp is about the max you can make with a stock cube LS1 and still have great driveabilty. with any high powered 60 degree, sbc v8, LS1 or other motor you will need a good rearend (dana 44,12 bolt, or ford 9") a driveshaft and a trans that will handle the abuse. i would stay away from the LT1 you can make more power with a standard sbc (much more parts available) and you won't have to deal with optispark issues ever.

[Cliff8928]

The LT1 is a nice engine, I like it very much... It has a great sound and has proved to be fairly reliable..

However, the LS1 seems to have more potential, and alot higher RPM potential (or at least they sound like it)... although they just don't rumble the same as the LT1, although they really scream at higher RPMs.

Oh, and there is practically NOTHING in common between LS1s and previous small-blocks (a friend thought he might be able to bolt LT1 heads on a LS1 block, that doesn't work!)

Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740
87 Supra <-LT1/6speed

[Lyle's GTP]

LT1 Heads, nice, real nice. Much better than edelbrock preformer RPM heads.
Give 'em a nice port job and you're gone.

Lyle

[ss_stealth]

You guys seem to know more about my options than I do. Good stuff!!!

I have heard of a lot of issues with Optispark. Also, I've read that the LT1's got raped over emissions and the OBDII makes it difficult (aka expensive) to tune the computer. I can't imagine the ECU being any easier (cheaper) to deal with for the LS powerplants.

450 solid horsepower? Where do I sign up? I know that the LS's are running around 10.2:1 compression ratios. That doesn't sound terribly boost friendly. And I would have that sort of thing in mind down the road.

The drivetrain is my second big problem. Either way I go I'm going to be faced with the need for a transmission and rearend upgrade. Both of which I don't see being able to do without thousands of dollars. If I went with the L98 it'd be a direct hookup to my 700R4. I am dreaming of a 6speed manual transmission. I know T56's can handle up to 550lb-ft -- is there anything beefier?

[RacerX11]

The LS engines are very ECU tuner friendly. There are several software packages available (LS1EDIT being one) that allow easy manipulation of fuel and timing curves. I thionk similar options exist for the LT-1 as well.

The high compression on the LS-1 is boost friendly, as long as you don't run too much boost. The combustion chambers are pretty efficient, and can handle 6-7 psi pretty good. There are twin turbo LS-1 applications running 500-550 HP with stock internals. As mentioned above, once you go past 500HP, you will need to start beefing up the internals.

LS1.com is still probably your best resource for drivetrain info. There are guys on there already pushing 500-600 HP, and they know what breaks, and how to fix it.

The LT-1 won't bolt to your 700R4, since the V6's have a different bellhousing bolt pattern.

Marty

[DetroitsFinest]

Screw the V8 swap. Sure, 3rd gens are EASY to do motorswaps in. Especially if you go with a nice carb setup and dont have to deal with all the computer and wiring BS. What you should do is swap out your 3.1 for a built 3.4 from a 1993-1995 V6. Theres a guy down in houston who swapped out his 3.1 for a 3.4 and was pretty damn quick for a little 6 cylinder 3rd gen. The extra power of the 3.4 over the 3.1 helped out a ton. Though there are not many parts available for the 3.4 performance wise - much like the 3.1, they are a strong powerplant. I would also recommend going with the 3800 swap but personally I feel the motors are overrated piles of crap. But now that I think about it, you COULD get a L67 swap done (GTP) and mate it up with a 4L60E tranny with a nice 3.42 rearend and run some pretty damn good times at the track. The reason you never see this swap done in 4th gens is because the motor is so far back in the enginebay you would have to cut the cowl off to fit the "roots type" blower. In a 3rd gen your motor is right there under the hood -- not hidden underneath all that extra crap. With a nice cowl hood you could fit one of those under and have a nice reliable powerplant. Mind you it may be some custom work, especially with the wiring, but 3rd gen F-bodies are a whole lot easier to work with due to their "old school" design. Yes, I know this is a 60 degree V6 website, but I am just giving the guy all his options. Its just one camaro guy too another

[geoffinbc]

But after screwing with any V6 he will still never reach his power goal without dropping and insane lump of cash on an engine that will not even be very drivable creating that kind of power.

[DetroitsFinest]

Not really. My low compression boosted 3.4 V6 should be up around 350-400 rwhp in my 95 Camaro. But then again, you're right -- it will cost some money. Should I do most of the work myself it should only cost me about $5,000 bucks to reach my goal. I'm probably aiming a little too low, it'll probably end up being more around $7,000 when I have a transmission built to handle that power..

Besides, there are lots of V6 cars out there making 400 horsepower. Too bad they're all turbocharged 3.8s out of the turbo trans ams and the grand nationals. Those motors are becoming REAL hard to come by these days. Thats why I recommended if he wanted to keep with a V6 and try and do it as easilly as possible -- the GTP engine. Besides, he'd be the first with a GTP motor in an f-body from what I know.. Nobody has done it, and it'd be pretty badass (customization wise) if you ask me. Then if he was to swap out the throttlebody, pulley, get a liquid-air intercooler, get some headwork done, full exhaust, and maybe a shot of nitrous he'll be up there!

As I said before though, I'm all for 60 degree engines, I'm just trying to help the guy out. Best bang for his buck, ya know?

[geoffinbc]

Yea im all for them too. But everything has a limit. If I could get my hands on an affordable LS engine in good shape I'd turn my 3.4L into a dune buggy.

[6SPEED84Z28]

the zf 6 speed out of a C4 vette was validated to 600 ft lbs. of course it is more expensive and requires fabrication to install it.