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Lowering Emissions: 2 cats? Air injection? EGR?

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  • Lowering Emissions: 2 cats? Air injection? EGR?

    The LX9 swap Grand Prix has been sitting for the past few months, waiting for completion of its tune. We paused for winter since the roads are all mucky.

    The #1 priority for this car is to pass emissions in the spring. It bombed the test several times last year. The way the law works, is that when it is due for registration renewal it will be denied – so I do still have some time on the clock.

    On its 2nd most recent test, the NOX was way too high, but CO and HC were within limits. On the latest test I had added an EGR valve and a new (aftermarket) 3 way cat converter. The NOX passed (but just) and the CO and HC exceeded the limits. It’s had more tuning since then, and has more to come before a re-test.

    I have 3 things on my minds though. First, a ton of cars run more than one catalytic converter inline. I have cat converters just lying around. Would I only stand to gain from adding one? Yes, I know more restriction = less performance but this is a daily driver so I don’t care. So, that said would adding a second cat be beneficial at all? I’d move the primary cat as far forward as possible for quicker lightoff and the second one maybe 6 inches behind.

    Second thought, I had to fabricate an EGR tube and it is much smaller diameter than an OEM EGR tube – I’d guess about 3/8” inside diameter. Is the flow adequate enough or would I benefit from using an OEM size tube? Would using a larger tube bring down the NOX emissions?

    Third thought, air injection. The original motor had it and I tossed the pump since the 3400 manifolds I’m using don’t support air injection. I have an F body air pump that I could hook up to a catalytic converter with an air port. Would I benefit at all from that? I know they only run when the engine is cold, but I could wire it to run continuously just for the e-test if it has the potential to bring down any of the numbers.
    1991 Grand Prix GTP LX9swap/Getrag 284 --- SOLD =(
    1994 Corvette
    LT1/ZF6
    2006 Dodge Dakota 4x4
    3.7/42RLE

  • #2
    I would go with the electric air pump and take it from there, and can you get the cat any closer to the manifolds to get it hotter?


    Sent from my iPhone using my iPhone at work cuz I have nothing to do

    Its runs!!!>>>Aint No 60* Sound Like Mehttp://youtu.be/YKEmNwa141U

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    • #3
      I can move the cat foward a little bit - it is right in the stock location now but I believe it will clear everything just fine a bit further upstream.
      I think I have some old evac tubes lying around that I can weld in just before the cat to hook up the air injection. At that point, since I'll have the exhaust out of the car I might as well just add the second cat since I have one. It may not do much but I don't think it can do any bad.

      I need to find some relatively quiet mufflers that are also dirt cheap. I have OEM mufflers off a L67 car, theyre quiet but don't fit quite right. Walker makes some direct fit but I can't afford to shell out for them.
      1991 Grand Prix GTP LX9swap/Getrag 284 --- SOLD =(
      1994 Corvette
      LT1/ZF6
      2006 Dodge Dakota 4x4
      3.7/42RLE

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      • #4
        What all have you fixed on your car since your last emissions test?
        Ben
        60DegreeV6.com
        WOT-Tech.com

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SappySE107 View Post
          What all have you fixed on your car since your last emissions test?
          Nothing since the last test, other than we did a lot more tuning - mechanically, I can find no fault with the motor.

          Going way back, the original test it was running on 5 cylinder (unseated pushrod) - fixed that long ago - still failed on NOX.
          Then we did a little bit of tuning and I added a new 3 way cat. Still failed NOX.
          A little more tuning, and added an EGR. Failed again, but it was HC and CO this time rather than NOX. - That was last time it was tested.


          I can't remember exactly the circumstances but I believe we started the tune from scratch. Wait, it was a bad o2. I replaced it and we basically started over.

          Since then, we've done A LOT of tuning and it runs much better, I believe where we left off was WOT tuning which shouldnt have an impact on emissions, but I could be recalling incorrectly and normal driving might need more work. As you may recall we took a break for winter and will resume once the weather gets a little better.

          Undoubtedly, with the new o2 and the tuen work it runs way better than the last time it was tested. I've noticed it still does make a raw fuel smell on a cold start and that dissipates within 5-10 seconds, afterwhich the exhaust smells relatively clean but on the rich side (this is at idle). I'm trying to do everything I can to ensure a pass next time I test it - and no, I absolutely won't make any changes that could have an impact on our (well, YOUR) tuning work. I'm really wondering if I could see any benefit, regardless of how small, from an additonal cat.

          What is awful about the whole situation is that the emissions limits decrease every year. Meaning, the state of CT expects older automobiles to run cleaner and cleaner every year - and the fact is they expect them to run cleaner than when they were brand new. It seems mostly like an effort to bully older vehicles off the road.
          1991 Grand Prix GTP LX9swap/Getrag 284 --- SOLD =(
          1994 Corvette
          LT1/ZF6
          2006 Dodge Dakota 4x4
          3.7/42RLE

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          • #6
            Originally posted by jmgtp View Post

            What is awful about the whole situation is that the emissions limits decrease every year. Meaning, the state of CT expects older automobiles to run cleaner and cleaner every year - and the fact is they expect them to run cleaner than when they were brand new. It seems mostly like an effort to bully older vehicles off the road.
            Ah greenies, they should be in the same place as the laywers if we ever get to start over.
            sigpicHow to make High performance Emissions:
            A "true" High flow converter, straight pipe.
            Low/No flow EGR valve, block off plate.
            Carbon canister and purge valve mod, place in large 30 Gallon can, cover, and place curbside, the city will do the rest.
            PCV valve and vent tube, reroute to exhaust to dump where it belongs, on the ground. Or add breathers and let it all free.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by 95SleeperAcheiva View Post
              Ah greenies, they should be in the same place as the laywers if we ever get to start over.
              I don't mind having the emissions equipment in place to make it run clean and I know mine should run cleaner than it does. But it irks me that they want it to run cleaner than what it was designed to do when it was brand new in 1991. I'm on Corvetteforum a lot and many complain about California - or as they like to call it, Kaliforniastan. Let me say CT isn't much better. Tight emissions standards that squeeze more each passing year, taxed to the limit and consistently within the top 5 (states) highest gas prices. I'd love to cam my LT1 in the Vette but I fear the emission police won't let me drive it.
              1991 Grand Prix GTP LX9swap/Getrag 284 --- SOLD =(
              1994 Corvette
              LT1/ZF6
              2006 Dodge Dakota 4x4
              3.7/42RLE

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              • #8
                as a few who have stock systems yet removed the emissions and then re-tuned can tell you....

                You burn less fuel with the emissions removed, gain MPG and power. Now someone explain to me how burning more gas makes you run cleaner?

                I'm not saying we should dump our used oil in the local creek, but a line should be drawn about how far the greenie crap should go. When they hinder advancement in technology and better ways of life they need to be stopped.
                A properly tuned engine can run very clean, without emissions.
                BTW, on yours, I agree, run an air pump, get those cats hot. But I'd only run it long enough to pass the test then pull it all off.
                sigpicHow to make High performance Emissions:
                A "true" High flow converter, straight pipe.
                Low/No flow EGR valve, block off plate.
                Carbon canister and purge valve mod, place in large 30 Gallon can, cover, and place curbside, the city will do the rest.
                PCV valve and vent tube, reroute to exhaust to dump where it belongs, on the ground. Or add breathers and let it all free.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well back on topic... despite whether we like it or not fact is the car has to pass this test.

                  Last night I pulled off the exhaust. I have a flange right before the Y pipe so I got to leave the mufflers in place.
                  I measured, made my cuts and tack welded... I was able to add a 2nd catalytic converter.

                  I moved the first cat as far foward as possible, which should help with lightoff - this is a 3 way cat (meaning it cleans NOX, HC and CO). The first cat is actually the smaller of the two since it fits better in the tunnel. About an inch behind is the 2nd - this one may only be a 2 way (no NOX cleaning). They both fit in the tunnel. I need to shorten the post cat pipe by about 6 inches but other than that it should be good to go. Of course my MIG ran out of gas and the place where I fill it isn't open on weekends.

                  So step 1 of dual cats is about completed. Hopefully it gets it a little cleaner, and maybe it'll tone the exhaust down a bit more (I want it quiet). The honeycomb in both cats looked great, no plugs, burns etc.

                  Step 2: upgrading EGR pipe to larger diameter since what I am using is smaller than stock
                  Step 3: air injection ---- will this one help on a motor that is already up to temp?
                  1991 Grand Prix GTP LX9swap/Getrag 284 --- SOLD =(
                  1994 Corvette
                  LT1/ZF6
                  2006 Dodge Dakota 4x4
                  3.7/42RLE

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                  • #10
                    AIR pumps fresh air into the exhaust to help catalyze the exhaust more efficiently(by making the cats get up to temp faster). if for some reason you're running rich when warm, then it will most definitely help, but otherwise it seems like it would just heat up the cat even more.

                    then again, fuck emissions.


                    NoX rises with high compression and leaner mixtures
                    HC rises with richer mixtures and when you go lean enough to cause a misfire
                    CO rises with richer mixtures



                    and here's something i grabbed from TGO a long time ago:



                    NOx and HC goes up at slightly lean condition, CO goes down.
                    NOx and HC go down with less timing.
                    A little EGR would drop NOx a lot faster than it would raise HC
                    Is EGR "gone" or just disabled?

                    NOx = Too hot too and/or much advance. Lower advance and or change
                    to colder spark plug. last ditch effort up target AFR.

                    HC = Unburned gas. Decrease AFR and/or raise advance. Plus is the cat hot?

                    CO = Not fully burned gas(incomplete combustion). Advance and AFR
                    again. Plus is the cat hot?

                    CO2 = How much gas are you burning or fuel economy. This one you
                    can't really change much. Its based on Efficiency of engine.

                    O2 = Unburned air. AFR related Don't worry about it.

                    Dilution = ? how much air is getting into the exhaust stream maybe?
                    Ask about this one. You may have an exhaust leak.
                    1995 Monte Carlo LS 3100, 4T60E...for now, future plans include driving it until the wheels fall off!
                    Latest nAst1 files here!
                    Need a wiring diagram for any GM car or truck from 82-06(and 07-08 cars)? PM me!

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                    • #11
                      IIRC the AIR pump on the 92 would run something like 30-60 seconds on start up until I took it out.
                      -60v6's 2nd Jon M.
                      91 Black Lumina Z34-5 speed
                      92 Black Lumina Z34 5 speed (getting there, slowly... follow the progress here)
                      94 Red Ford Ranger 2WD-5 speed
                      Originally posted by Jay Leno
                      Tires are cheap clutches...

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                      • #12
                        In theory, an afr of 13.4:1 should net better mpg. Stoich is just the best chemical burn but not the best power burn.
                        1996 Grand Prix | 3100v6 L82 | T04E-50 Turbo | Getrag 282 w/ EP LSD | SPEC-3 Clutch

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                        • #13
                          Doesnt sound right though, when lean cruise is enabled it bumps the afr to something greater than 14.7 to increase fuel efficiency.
                          Regardless, lean cruise is not enabled until tuning is done AND it passes emissions.

                          I haven't touched it in over a week - the cylinder for my Mig is empty and the place is closed on weekends so its near impossible for me to get it filled.
                          The air pump sounds like it might be more effort than it is worth but I'm going to look into a better egr setup.
                          1991 Grand Prix GTP LX9swap/Getrag 284 --- SOLD =(
                          1994 Corvette
                          LT1/ZF6
                          2006 Dodge Dakota 4x4
                          3.7/42RLE

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                          • #14
                            I don't know how you can't get it to pass... I had my red 95 Beretta car pass once CATLESS! with a 3400 in it...

                            Air pumps will NOT help you they are designed to inject air ONLY at startup to ignite the cat quicker they do not run any longer than 30-60 seconds on cold startup.

                            who did your tune and what did you start with for a base? This is OBDI I'm assuming.

                            Your car is also 21 years old right now so limp it through for the next two emissions inspections because then your exempt. I like having OBDII its so easy to pass...
                            Last edited by 3400-95-Modified; 03-02-2012, 10:01 AM.

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                            • #15
                              The tune at the time of the e-test was based around (an unknown at the time) bad o2 sensor. So yes, the tune was no good, but it was because the o2 sesor was shot.
                              Its been tuned again since then with a NEW o2 sensor and runs much better --- but it hasn't been re-tested yet. I'm just doing absolutely everything I can to ensure a pass since it now costs me a $20 test fee + a $20 late fee each time and once the registration expires it cannot be re-registered unless it has passed (though that shouldnt be till 2013).
                              1991 Grand Prix GTP LX9swap/Getrag 284 --- SOLD =(
                              1994 Corvette
                              LT1/ZF6
                              2006 Dodge Dakota 4x4
                              3.7/42RLE

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