Question : lifter tap/piston slap?

[mike0589]

Hi, Got a question for you guys. The monte has had what i believe is lifter tap since i have had the car. (almost 2 years, 6K miles.) But it would go away after a little bit of time, Then since about a month or two ago i had to go WOT to get it to go away. Today i did two WOT runs about ten miles apart, And it was still there. So what do you guys think?

Any help is greatly, Greatly appreciated.

[robertisaar]

i'm sure i'm not the only one who thinks this, but WOT made it go away? if so then it tells me that things expanded during the WOT due to he extra heat, so i'd say the pistons are probably the culprit. but i don't think WOT runs will help them live any longer...

[60dgrzbelow0]

Hi, Got a question for you guys. The monte has had what i believe is lifter tap since i have had the car. (almost 2 years, 6K miles.) But it would go away after a little bit of time, Then since about a month or two ago i had to go WOT to get it to go away. Today i did two WOT runs about ten miles apart, And it was still there. So what do you guys think?

Any help is greatly, Greatly appreciated.

Taking an engine that has a sketchy or hectic performance to WOT over and over again to see if the condition improves is a bit like testing a Parachute more than once that's designed to "Open on Impact". Neither one of these tactics is a very Good Idea. You don't mention how high the mileage on your motor is... but... have a look at some threads here (The "Search" Tab is your very best friend...) about using something like a "SeaFoam" treatment to chase out the Motor Mites in your engine. Hydraulic Flat Tappets (lifters) can often get something tiny...like little bits of 'scrock'..lodged inside of them that will prevent them from "plumping and pumping" up properly...and a good top end cleaner treatment might just do wonders in cleaning this out. Do you hear a noisy valve train as well?

After the treatment, make sure you change the oil and oil filter and use a good quality products when you do. And then change that oil and filter again at around a 1,000 miles instead of doing it at 3,000 as is par for their normal care and feeding. If you are not in too cold of a climate where the oil turn thicker than Molasses in Winter...GUNK and STP make some interesting Engine Oil Treatments and Supplements that can also help out with engines that "Go Bump in the Night!" If you have to go to WOT any more...or use a Parachute, for that matter...make damned sure that you're either in a burning airplane, being chased by a three story Therapod... or you have The Blues Brothers riding hot and hard on your bumper!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtV4GZ9gRyw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DQhHeC5aNc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y-LQd2e_Uw

[mike0589]

i'm sure i'm not the only one who thinks this, but WOT made it go away? if so then it tells me that things expanded during the WOT due to he extra heat, so i'd say the pistons are probably the culprit. but i don't think WOT runs will help them live any longer...

I know i thought the same thing, Maybe it's not the pistons and it just picked that time to go away, I'm not sure. But the taping has gotten worse since i got the car, And yes as soon as i heard it tapping after the 2nd WOT run i was going very easy on the car the rest of the way home. So besides the pistons what else do you guys think it could be?

[60dgrzbelow0]

If you intend to eliminate Piston Slap due to excessive wear as the problem... a Dry/Wet Compression test is in order... It might also be helpful for you to shoot a brief "Engine Sound" Video of the car at idle and when raising the RPM through various ranges and then back to idle again and post it either on YouTube or on your Photobucket... Then we can all see and listen to this event and more people can render opinions that better recognize what they are hearing as a more specific problem.

[mike0589]

Oops, I kind of left that part out, It has 126K. I really do need to do a compression test, But i need to buy a tester first. I will try to get a cold startup vid, And one after a drive.

[Monzsta]

Don't forget the clatter made by a slightly worn timing chain and a hardened chain snubber.

The 3900's have an actual chain tensioner on the outside of the chain and is most effective at quelling the noise.

From what I've seen, the 3900 tensioner can easily replace the snubber on the 3100/3400/3500 and may also help prevent false KR as a result.

[robertisaar]

From what I've seen, the 3900 tensioner can easily replace the snubber on the 3100/3400/3500 and may also help prevent false KR as a result.

now THERE'S an idea...

too bad i'm just jumping ship directly to the 3900 instead of building something smaller...

is it all of the VVT 60s or just the 3900?

[mike0589]

That is a very good point, Next time i'm in my car i will have to look in the book and see how hard it is to remove the chain cover. If it is not really bad i may do it. I still need to get vids for you guys.

[60dgrzbelow0]

Don't forget the clatter made by a slightly worn timing chain and a hardened chain snubber.

The "Monzsta Man" is Right...

FWIW... A stretched Timing Chain/Gear Set will make the most racket when the engine is IDLING... due to the fact that under a torque load of constant, higher RPMs... The Small Crankshaft Cog is pulling hard against the Timing Chain and taking up all the "slack"... So if you raise the RPM (NOT to WOT! ) and the sound seems to goes away...but returns when the motor eases back to idle...you may have Zeroed your problem. As for the repair...without knowing how your engine sits...what accessories are in the way...the basic "Kit" for this repair requires the following:

1. Harmonic Balancer Puller Tool
2. Harmonic Balancer Installer Tool
3. A New "Redi-Sleeve" Kit for your HB...Otherwise your badly "grooved" nose on the HB will leak like a sieve.
4. A New Timing Cover Harmonic Balancer Spring-Loaded "Seal"
5. A Timing Cover and Water Pump Gasket Set
6. A New Water Pump (You'd be a Fool NOT to replace it right then...)
7. A Clean Catch Pan to allow you to Re-Cycle your Anti-Freeze (Just pour it through a Large Coffee Filter to strain out the Dirt)
8. New Water Pump Hoses (If the Old Ones look Gnarly)
9. New Hose Clamps
10. ARP Thread Sealer
11. Cleaned and Inspected Water Pump Bolts/TC Bolts (Replace the Rotten ones!)
12. Brake or CRC Spray Cleaning Solvents and Bookoo Shop Rags...and...Either some Paint on or Spray on Gasket/Tacky Goo
13. A Brand New Stock Timing Set (One Chain, One Camshaft Gear, One Crankshaft Gear, Instructions on Proper Alignment)
14. Assorted Hand Tools, Wrenches, Ratchets, Screw Drivers...and a Small Torque Wrench (Inch Pounds!)
15. A Mirror and a Flashlight... so you can Check and Confirm that the positions of your TS Gears and Chain are NOT FUBARed
16. Almost forgot...............A Crankshaft Gear Puller Tool
17. Also...Almost forgot......A Crankshaft Gear Installer Tool
18. And LBNL... The Time to Do The Job...

[Joseph Upson]

Piston slap, it'll quit once the piston is replaced. Remember GM had a problem with this. Note the gap between the wall and the piston and the ring gap. This was on a 2000 3100 that I picked up as a near new pullout due to engine noise that turned out to be piston slap once I installed it and discovered why it was in such new condition after the fact. The picture is after about 30,000 miles of turbo abuse. The #6 piston was on the brink of failure with a severely damaged and scuffed skirt. That's it you see in the picture. Revving hard will push you closer to piston failure. You can stick your foot through that ring gap. The car still managed about 25 mpg with iron heads on the motor. Very low compression.

[60dgrzbelow0]

Piston slap, it'll quit once the piston is replaced. Remember GM had a problem with this. Note the gap between the wall and the piston and the ring gap. This was on a 2000 3100 that I picked up as a near new pullout due to engine noise that turned out to be piston slap once I installed it and discovered why it was in such new condition after the fact. The picture is after about 30,000 miles of turbo abuse. The #6 piston was on the brink of failure with a severely damaged and scuffed skirt. That's it you see in the picture. Revving hard will push you closer to piston failure. You can stick your foot through that ring gap. The car still managed about 25 mpg with iron heads on the motor. Very low compression.

Hello Joe...It's nice to see a Fellow Forum Brother local to the Tampa Bay Area...

Yikes... Just LOOK at that cylinder! Why...you could drop a Boiled Ostrich Egg down there, sideways with NOoooo trouble! Did you have to sleeve the block to fix the problem?

[Joseph Upson]

Hello Joe...It's nice to see a Fellow Forum Brother local to the Tampa Bay Area...

Yikes... Just LOOK at that cylinder! Why...you could drop a Boiled Ostrich Egg down there, sideways with NOoooo trouble! Did you have to sleeve the block to fix the problem?

No sleeving necessary, I fixed it with a 3900 V6. The engine ran fine it just made a lot of racket which is why it was removed from the car it was first installed in. It would quiet down from time to time initially but it eventually got louder and a few months prior to its removal I really got on it hard with 7-8 psi of boost and probably near 7000 rpm while passing someone and I noticed it was louder afterwards and sensed it was only a matter of time before it failed. There is a picture of the piston in a "dissected 3100" post or thread by me here somewhere to show how bad a shape the #6 piston was in.

http://60degreev6.com/forum/f98/dissected-turbo-3100-pistons-5-6-piston-noise-t37896

[mike0589]

Well i got vids for you guys to check out.

This first one is a cald start, I think it was about 42*F outside.

I freaking covered the mic for most of the vid and did not even know it, So when the audio gets real loud thats why.



This vid is after a 20 mile drive. (Mostly highway.)



Any thoughts?

[mike0589]

Bump.