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Originally posted by 60dgrzbelow0
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Maybe I'll whip up a fancy drawing for you, since I am a CAD guy.
-Brad-
89 Mustang : Future 60V6 Power
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Follow the build -> http://www.3x00swap.com/index.php?page=mustang-blog -
That would be and EXCELLENT idea, Brad...and perhaps either John or CNCguy will take pity on me and use your drawing to machine a rectangular aluminum block into a "Space-Age" EFI "Kleanser Rail" as a sub-component of the final design for "The FrankInjector Machine". This thread has just broken the number 2,000 for interested followers of this project, so I would be willing to bet there would be a market for selling these things to interested parties intent upon making their own versions of my device... and without all the hassles I've been dealing with on the R&D side lately.Originally posted by bszopi View PostMaybe I'll whip up a fancy drawing for you, since I am a CAD guy.
Here are the general specs... Noting that the width measurement of the Vertical Stand is set at an arbitrary 16" wide (16.25" if you don't radius the cross member pieces that join the base and upper "Uprights" on the Bed Frame Angle Iron Stand that holds all the hardware.)
With the present available Brass Hardware:
1. 2- 6" X 3/8" Brass Plumbing Pipe
2. 2- 3/8" Hex Bolt Head Brass End Caps
3. 1- 3/8" Triple (T-Shaped) Fitting (Female on all ports)
4. 1- 3/8" Male Threaded Barbed Fuel Inlet Fitting
5. 6 (Or 8 for doing V-8 EFIs) 3X00 EFI Ports (With Equal Spacing along the Bottom of the Rail and Brazed in Place. Center Drilling opens each port)
The overall length will be somewhere between 13" to 15" in order to be able to be mounted somehow onto the Axial Support. Then I've got to find the right kind of metal retaining clips that hold these EFIs to the individual ports.
That is pretty much the overall measurement restrictions. I've searched high and low for some kind of separate external fittings that would snugly accept and hold tightly the Rochester Multech Style EFIs...with no luck. In the absence of using an original GM Fuel Rail-Manifold... The only other option is to sacrifice some kind of 3X00 Fuel Rail to scavenge, re-orient flush and braze them onto the Brass Pipe segments. That will be done in the next few days. I have to laugh at how easy this part of the project would have been using a clean chunk of billet aluminum, your design CAD data...and any CNC Machine...
Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 11-05-2009, 07:55 AM.Comment
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Cliff Notes Visuals...
Okay... I got wise to the notion that building one "complete" Proto-Type after another of "The FrankInjector" was a very Bad Idea, given my hubris at imagining that every time I think of something and get down to actually building it...that it will work. The Failed Effort I put into the last (Version III) happened because I did not consider any thermal implications in the use of Copper Tubing, with a Brass Pipe Insert as the means to hold and seal up the "BLUE" O-Ringed ends of the Six (6) Rochester Multech EFIs I installed in the rail. It failed miserably and that took me, "Back to the Ol' Drawing Board" for a complete Re-Design of the "NON-GM-NON-FACTORY" EFI Cleaner (Fuel) Rail.
As you can see from the attached images and my latest video... I got wise enough to use only one of the "EFI Nipples" I carved off of an old 3X00 Anodized Steel Fuel Rail for this experiment. Of course, the issue I knew I'd be facing was that sticky little problem of the difficulty in Brazing/Welding a Ferrous Metal (Steel EFI Nipple) to a Brass Metal (EFI Fuel 6" Brass Pipe for the EFI Rail); especially since its harder than an early morning "Pee Chubbee" when the BASE Metal turns out to be Brass instead of Steel. Very HARD!
So what to do? Well the secret in this case was to make certain that both items (see the pics for a better idea) were squeaky clean, bench ground and wire wheel polished and then mounted in such a way that there is at least a little space between them B4 you even light the Brazing Torch and then add the O2. Next ...it helps to "Pre-melt and Cover" all the pieces being brazed with a good Bi-Metal Fluxing compound and heat the stuff until it bubbles and looks foamy...then let the pieces sit for a bit to cool. Finally... you need a good roll of coiled Brass/Silver Brazing wire and unwind about 6"-8" so that when you apply it and it eventually begins to flow into the joint...you won't burn your fingers by getting too close tp your work. When the Feed Wire starts getting shorter...unroll the tip of the wire (one-handed, wire extended along the surface of your work bench) to keep a decent length to work with.
Next is the torch. I was able to get away with using an older "Mini-Map Gas -Oxygen" Dual Hose Torch I've had for years and after cleaning the tip with a Brass brush, and after lighting the MAP gas with only a 16th" turn, when the flame is orange and still close to the end of the tip, burning with black plumes of unburnt carbon floating in the air... introduce your O2 to the MAP Gas just a little at a time until your flame is a nice, Dark Blue on the outside with a lighter, hotter 'Blue' Center Flame. When you apply the heat...try to start with the Brass Pipe first and then move the flame around the base of the EFI Nipple until both are glowing nearly red. By now...your Flux will have melted and gone from a crusty coating to a milky smoothness....and when it finally turns clear enough to see the underlying joint...you are very close to Braze Time! (Wear Brazing Goggles and protective clothing!)
At this point...work the flame back and forth over the Brass Pipe and EFI Nipple Fitting while also holding your "Wire" in between to heat the metal up enough to melt. Don't be impatient... Work the flame back and forth enough to see an even distribution of heat. The Filler Metal in your "Wire" will melt first...so feed the stream of it into and under the clamped EFI Nipple while dragging the flame back and forth between the fitting and the Brass Pipe. When everything gets hot enough...the wire will melt like a Butter Paddie and all you need to do is not get fascinated enough while watching to stop the back and forth motion with the Blue Flame. Don't be cheap with the Filler Wire!...Feed plenty into the "Wound"...You can always grind off whatever you don't need or want on the finished work. And all of the "extras" are re-usable and recyclable. Be prepared to have several MAP Gas Bottles on hand and three times as many O2 Canisters as well. Check your work often and be careful where and how you lay out your hoses. This work is best done outside where there is plenty of light and distance from flammable liquids and other things you might accidentally set on fire. Keep a decent ABC Fire Extinguisher on hand... but there really is no substitute for common sense and thoughtful judgment when working with open flames around explosive fuels and accelerators. Keep that in mind when you set up your work area to do this job. If you have the least bit of doubt about your abilities to perform all these tasks at once... Then STOP... Get some professional help before you manage to accidentally burn your house down while trying to do this!!!
These are the Bare Essentials for the Brass Hardware you will need:
1.2- 6" X 3/8" Brass Plumbing Pipe
2.2- 3/8" Hex Bolt Head Brass End Caps
3.1- 3/8" Triple (T-Shaped) Fitting (Female on all ports)
4.1- 3/8" Male Threaded Barbed Fuel Inlet Fitting
5.6 (Or 8 for doing V-8 EFIs) 3X00 EFI Ports (With Equal Spacing along the Bottom of the Rail and Brazed in Place. Center Drilling opens each port AFTER BRAZING!)
Don't “Pre-Drill" the three holes in each 6” Brass Pipe! That is almost the last thing to be done, short of cleaning and scrubbing the New EFI Fuel Rail Assembly scrupulously clean with Scotch Guard Pads, some Three and One Oil, a Wire Coat Hanger...and some “Elbow Grease”. Remember that as you Braze...make certain that you have removed all of the extra Brass Fittings from each pipe prior to beginning. It will take an enormous amount of heat to get the Brass Pipe to cooperate in this endeavor. Don't add to your woes by adding or leaving parts from the construction on the Brass Pipe that will do no more more than rob you of the heat you will need to concentrate at the weld joint. When it comes to holding the Steel EFI Fitting against the Brass Rail...use the smallest pair of Framing Vice Grips you can find. I had to grind one of the contact pads of the tool down in order for it to fit all the way down inside of the EFI Nipple. Once there, clamping the Steel Inlet in place was easy! Don't be tempted to drill out the center holes in the Rail (Three (3) Per Rail) before they have been brazed on as solidly as you are able. Later...You can find just the right sized drill and bore through the Factory Made Hole in the bottom of the EFI Nipple and through the Brass Pipe to make an opening to the EFI Cleaning Fluid stream. Dress up the pipe and clean away all contaminants. Spray Brake Cleaner works wonders in jobs like this,...but remember not to spray down the work when its hot enough to ignite the solvent spray pattern. When finished, make certain you use compressed air and a nozzle sprayer to dislodge and remove any metal chips, burrs or residue, because once assembled, the next stage of action comes when the fluid in the piping is flowing through the EFIs and then down into the Acrylic Drain Harness, so the fluid stream must NOT be flushing little bits of metal and crap into the tops of the EFIs, defeating the purpose of the cleaning in the first place..
Proof of Concept:
This would be in the affirmative, but for the fact that I have yet to braze the remaining five (5) EFI Inlets in place and wonder now whether the average Mechanic would want to mess with something that requires so much planning and precision to do the assembly right. But even if this experience turns out to be unique to my own work, I can at least have the satisfaction of having defeated all the major problems and constructed all the necessary working Prototypes successfully.
“The FrankInjector Machine” Works.... Period.
Attached FilesLast edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 11-06-2009, 12:47 AM.Comment
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Dear Santa... Please send me a CNC Machine 4 Xmas!
Yup... And again...I was thinking about why I didn't take "The Blue Pill" when I was doing it, too. Now if Santa will only send me a CNC Machine for Christmas... (and that 7th Lobe in the Brain that Brainy Guys like CNCguy and John and Brad have for doing all the math and CAD work I would need to know in order to make it work...+ a Manual..) Why... I could have whipped this thing out in NO time!Originally posted by robertisaar View Post
The only reason I'm taking it past its present "Proof of Concept" stage is because I want to compare the same set of EFIs on this rail that gave me some dissimilar Flow Balance Test readings when using the clock stock GM Fuel Rail. If I don't see some very significant differences... then I'm going to just recommend that other builders stick with the working outcome of Version II of "Frank"...
Still... It's fun working with metal..and making things...even if they all wind up looking like props for the Cheech and Chong Movie, "Up in Smoke"
"Kinda grabs you by the Boo-Boo ...Don't it?"
Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 11-06-2009, 09:33 AM.Comment
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You know... This is probably a good time at this stage of this thread for me to take a little break; lighten up and find out whether I should start another, Off Topic one...sort of a "We Show You the 'Funnee'" kind of thread... Anybody out there ready to see me do my Christopher Walken routines about my neighbors' reactions to seeing all this R&D of "The FrankInjector" being strewn about my driveway over the last few weeks? Trust me... If I do shoot some videos of this...you'd better put down your Milk and Oreos... because my "Wauakinn" will have you all shootin' milk out of your noses from laughing so hard... Just let me know...
Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 11-06-2009, 09:44 AM.Comment
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A Word of CAUTION....
Just a word or two about the follow up Brazing that needs to be done to finish the Brass Rail B4 The Final EFI Cleaning and Flow Balance Tests will be conducted and this thread...albeit a strange and arguably interesting one... dies its natural death with the passing of time...
But before that happens...and I fire up the torch again... Here is just a little Safety Warning about the materials I used in order to put the Brass Piping together well enough to hold the 43.5 PSI during the last video I shot to show that the concept of mixing the Brass Pipe and Steel EFI Ports together...works. In order to accomplish the sealing of each and every threaded piece, I used the ARP Thread Sealer to also prove that that is the right stuff to seal up whatever you also decide to build or experiment with during your own builds...
But since in this instance of the work being unfinished, I will have to dis-assemble this Brass Rig again in order to continue the Brazing operations with the remaining Five (5) EFI Nipples to be installed and tested...Ergo...
I WILL NEED TO SCRUPULOUSLY CLEAN ALL OF THE THREADED PIECES OF EVERY LAST VESTIGE OF THE "ARP THREAD SEALER" BECAUSE IT CONTAINS A FAIR AMOUNT OF PULVERIZED TEFLON WITHIN THE STICKY COMPOUND OF ITS MAKE UP...
I know you're all wondering what the problem is here... but it is very simple:
TEFLON (POLY-FLUORO-TETRA-ETHYLENE) DECAYS INTO PHOSGENE GAS AT 900 F... (MUCH LOWER THAN YOUR BRAZING TEMPERATURE) AND IF YOU BREATHE IN THE FUMES WHILE HOVERING OVER YOUR BRAZING WORK...YOU COULD VERY SOON WIND UP ON A CORONER'S TABLE... HAVING YOUR ORGANS WEIGHED ON A MEAT SCALE WHILE HE HUMS A SCRAP OF MUSIC FROM MADAME BUTTERFLY AND CONTEMPLATES WHAT HIS WIFE MADE HIM FOR LUNCH.
So Please Gents... Please... Be mindful of the nature of this useful, but very mean spirited chemical... once things get Too Hot for Teflon to Handle.... Be Safe!
Thanks...
--==Bob==--Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 11-08-2009, 12:56 AM.Comment
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For all the "Pipe Dope'...Please stop in here...
Okay... This afternoon ...under what can only be described as a "Philadelphia Winter Sky" I managed to finish cutting and adapting the remaining five (5) EFI Nipples scavenged from a GM 3X00 Fuel Rail and after running out of the best kind of Brazing and Flux Kit, I struggled with some alternative rods that got the job done; albeit with less economy and good appearance than I would ordinarily tolerate in my work. But now that I think about it...nearly 45 years ago, during a high school class on Basic Welding... Our instructor had the habit of reminding us..."This is a Welding Class... You don't get points if your welds look "Pretty"...Just make damned certain they all HOLD!" And with that in mind... That is how I proceeded to complete the task. If you spied the Schrader Valve in the photo...its because I'm debating whether to braze it on the upper portion of the pipe as an alternative to using the Brass Barbed fitting as the means to introduce the EFI Cleaner into the Newly Designed Brass EFI Rail.
I'll finish cleaning the two Brass Pipe Assemblies tomorrow and then mount the rail on "The FrankInjector" after running some cleaner through the system without mounting the EFIs. If everything looks good, I'll install all six (6) Test EFIs and pressure check the system for leaks along the weld seams and around the "BLUE" O-Rings, too. If all goes well, I'll put the machine through its paces and shoot a few more videos of how it acts. What I am particularly interested in memorializing is how this Brass Rail handles the Flow Balance Tests. If there is a significant difference and improvement, then I'll know that using the GM Factory Fuel Rail was perhaps a nice entry level way to build other versions of "Frank"... but that in order to cover all the tests necessary to clean and prepare a decent set of EFIs that anybody would have confidence in remounting on their engines and expect a much improved performance from these efforts, the Brass Rail is a necessity.
When the Final Test Results are completed, I'll create a comprehensive "Parts, Pieces, Practices and Procedures" document as a series of screen printed images of the texts and post it on my Photo-Bucket for anyone interested in trying this build out. I'll make some amendments in what materials can be used that are less expensive than many of the pricier experimental ways I tried to get things done ...without suggesting anything that will compromise anyone's health, safety of the durability of their own builds.
This project is nearing its end and I would like to mention some things that are important to me and that I have been very conscious of during this process. Perhaps these thoughts might be encouraging to some if not many of you who have been kind enough to be attentive and follow this thread for so long to its completion.
No matter your intellect or innate skills...problem solving does not take place in the vacuum of the space inside your head. And on the opposite side of that thinking scale are the many people who constantly ask..."Why do I need to know THAT?" without realizing that successful problem solving can only happen when you throw everything you are...everything you know...and yes...everything you THINK you know... along with your myriad experiences, all at once at the issue at hand. It also follows that none of this... nothing you are thinking about right now ...means anything at all ...if you are too selfish to share your thoughts and ideas with others. Out of the thousands who looked in on this thread, only three people had Balls as Big as Church Bells on this forum to chime in and chide me...or encouraged me. And because they did... they stimulated my thinking with disagreement and often coming up with better ideas on how some of "The FrankInjector" could evolve by offering their help along the way. So these Men own a piece of its design and own pieces of the puzzle that it was to design and make functional and so they deserve credit and recognition for helping to make this machine into something...Real... They are identified as follows:
Robertisaar
Superdave
pocket-rocket
Thank You Gentlemen... I appreciate what happened here on this forum that made the difference in what was I thought this machine would be in the beginning...and how it kept getting better with each and every suggestion and interaction from them. I'm grateful for this help.
In closing this thread, this leads me to the last abstract idea of what it means to do something creative that has never been done before...and even if it has...your fervent ideas about trying to "Build a Better Mousetrap" requires a certain fearlessness in the face of the chance that you might suffer much ridicule and worse than that; the very real possibility of your work becoming an abject failure. But you can't be afraid to fail. If you are too self-involved... then you'll miss out on the chance to create something none of us has ever seen before! So... If you want to make something... go ahead... make it!
Attached FilesLast edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 11-12-2009, 11:10 PM.Comment
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Originally posted by robertisaar View Postso i take it you're almost ready for your next project?
LOL............... I still have to construct "The Last of the Brass" version of "The FrankInjector" and shoot the final videos and stills of its performance B4 I can put this one to bed...but even that must wait until I can finish helping a sick friend with his devastating mechanical woes. (See the thread called "INTEKATASTROPHE" for the details on that necessary diversion) When I can get back to being ready to bring "Frank" in for the finish... I will be using the Schrader Valve instead of just tolerating the use of the Brass Barbed In-Fuel fitting...Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 11-12-2009, 11:07 PM.Comment
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I just had a thought... (I don't know why its occurring to me this late) but...given that the New Nipples (sound kinda creepy, huh?) came directly from a stock 3X00 Fuel Rail...maybe I can just use the Stock Holding Clips to keep these EFIs tucked in on the Brass EFI Cleaner Fuel Rail, rather than use all those silly S/S Hose Clamps and short sections of Acrylic Hosing...and be done with that little problem! Hmmm... Autozone? Here I come...Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 11-18-2009, 12:10 AM.Comment
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Robert... Do you think Autozone carries those clips in stock... like the "BLUE" O-Rings...which I need to get as well? Or is this item strictly a GM Dealership part? I'm guessing that anything that can slip into the groove(s) of the Rochester Multech EFIs and also around those Nozzle Tits will work ...if for no other reason than the fact that the positional relationship between these two components is damned near the ONLY thing I have not had to either change or dummy up in either Copper or Brass to cobble together! All other things being equal in the absence of having those components being squeezed in between the Upper and Lower IMs... I think the stock clips should work, tooOriginally posted by robertisaar View Postwithout seeing it in person, i can't think of any reason why you couldn't... yet.Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 11-15-2009, 10:13 PM.Comment
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i've never had to look for anything related to them, so i really wouldn't know... but the local autozone rep should know...Comment
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This stuff probably deserves its own conceptual thread... but since these all speak to a person's basic understanding of how Electronic Fuel Injection works on both an informative and even a humorous scale, I thought it worth tucking in somewhere even this late on the postings. These videos will do a pretty good job of reminding everyone now lost in all the "Post-Production" PITA things remaining to be done on this project as to what the original motive was for my trying to get it done in the first place...and share what we all found out along the way.
"The FrankInjector Machine" does more than just mimic the professional grade EFI Cleaning Machines all the "Big Boys" are using to clean and recondition Fuel Injectors...it is also the means to really reveal any and all of the weaknesses in your Fuel Injector Sets. You may discover while using your own version of "Frank" that some of your injectors are not going to be get past the knowledge that they are completely "Tits Up". So if nothing else...using it it might take all of the guess work out of which ones are the "Weak Sisters" in your sets and then allow you to reduce your costs by only replacing the actual FUBARed ones and save so much more money in doing so. These videos are not meant for the jaded, scarred and experienced mechanics among us... but rather meant to edify our new members; those of us who are just getting their "Sea Legs" on the subject and yet, still suffering because their cars are not running right. These videos are among my favorites and I hope you all enjoy watching them. If you have your own "How-To" Favorites on this particular area... please add them:
"Shirtless but not Dirtless: A Primer on Basic Automotive Electronic Fuel Injection"
This is arguably THE BEST EFI PRIMER...EVER!!! You have just GOT to love this Guy...He even takes time to scratch himself while not skipping a beat in his video performance!
Multec EFI Failure: Another Good Reason to Build your OWN "FrankInjector Machine"
How to Ohm (Resistance) Check your Electronic Fuel Injectors...
How to Wake Up a Sleepy EFI on a 3.1L or 3.4L Engine...
How to use the Lisle Pushrod Removal/Install Tool to Save Time...
Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 11-18-2009, 12:24 AM.Comment
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