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**geoffinbc** · 10-02-2007, 07:38 PM

If the lifter is gone the additives wont do anything. Your going to have to go through and check each lifter. The first thing to do however is check that all the rocker bolts are tight. If they are the proceed to the lifters. If one is damaged replace all of them.

**Talontwoswords** · 10-03-2007, 02:50 PM

Yeah, I think you are right. I'm just wondering if my camshaft will be damaged to. That's a little advanced for me to repair.

How do you tell if the camshaft lobes are worn out?

Anyhow, I did add some "Gunk valvemedic" to the engine. It's acting a lot better now, at least in the interim. Noise and hesitation (lack of power in the low band) are gone.

I'm going to change oil and add that other stuff I mentioned (it came in the mail real quick) and hold off the engine job long as I can. Thanks.

**geoffinbc** · 10-04-2007, 07:28 PM

Na the cam will be fine. A roller cam only gets damaged if the lifters float or if the lifters turn sideways on the lobe from a broken guide. You wont have to worry.

**Superdave** · 10-05-2007, 12:07 AM

what brand oil filter are you using?

i ask because my 2004 grand am GT sounded like hell on cold starts in the winter with only 50K on the engine.. it would rattle for a few minutes then quiet down. I switched to the propper AC Delco oil filter and it took away 75% of the noise.

**Talontwoswords** · 10-05-2007, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Superdave View Post

what brand oil filter are you using?

i ask because my 2004 grand am GT sounded like hell on cold starts in the winter with only 50K on the engine.. it would rattle for a few minutes then quiet down. I switched to the propper AC Delco oil filter and it took away 75% of the noise.

I think I'm using those Purolator filters from Advanced Auto Parts stores.

I also have a 4.3L S-10 that uses the same filter. I guess I'm "John-Q" consumer, I don't know which one is best, but I'll try the AC ones in the future.

**19Cutlass94** · 10-05-2007, 10:55 PM

Purolators are garbage IMHO. Use AC Delco... Gm uses that brand for a reason

**Talontwoswords** · 10-12-2007, 01:30 AM

Ok, Since it started acting up again, so I decided to take it apart.

Right now I have the it down to the lifters, and I briefly inspected them. The rollers seem ok, but I don't know what may be going on inside one of these. How do I know, while out of the engine, if a lifter is bad?

I guess I will replace them and put in a new LIM gasket set.

BTW, the passenger side coolant ports were blocked with gunk, that is stop leak product. I think the product accumulated there because I noticed the LIM gasket was pretty deterioted (cracked, etc) around that area.

I don't know how severe this blockage is, I can clean what I can see up, but I wonder if I have to remove the heads (I was trying to avoid that) to see if more of the water passage(s) are blocked.

I think I'm just going to clean it up as best I can and put it back together and hope for the best.

**19Cutlass94** · 10-12-2007, 12:08 PM

The lifters are like $20 a pop... yeah not cheap. Only replace what you need to. Look at the roller on the bottom, and if its not smooth then replace it. Also look at the outside body of it. Make sure thats in good shape as well.

As far as the LIM gasket... I think the passengers side is a dumby port.. I duno why GM did this... But after replacing the LIM gaskets, start it up, let it warm up, then change the oil.. this will prevent any coolant that got into the oil from creating any damage.

**Talontwoswords** · 10-12-2007, 02:05 PM

From what I saw, the lifters appeared to have a tight tolerance with their bores, and they externally looked in good shape. From what I saw of the cam lobes, they appeared ok as well.

I've already ordered new lifters. The cost is no biggie, much cheaper than a new used car and I read somewhere that some believe that periodic replacement extends the life of the engine.

But how can you tell if you have a "collapsed" lifter. Do they have to be installed and the engine running w/ the valve covers off, or can you tell some other way?

I wonder if i should check the valves. The stems and springs appeared ok. All the bolts were tight. I'll have to inspect everything, but I doubt my novice eyes will find anything unusual.

I wonder if this thing is about to throw a rod.

Someone on this forum also mentioned that the ignition coils could malfunction, causing noise. Maybe the knock sensor as well? Just trying to check any possible cause before I put back together. Thanks for help.

**IsaacHayes** · 10-12-2007, 03:26 PM

It's likely your timing chain is slapping the dampener/guide. Mine made this noise for a looong time and recently I replaced it and the guide due to a leaky timing cover gasket (since I had the cover off), and now the 200,000m engine is super quiet. Taking off the cover in a W body would not be as bad as in my car. You actually have some room between the cover and fender, not to mention you don't have an engine mount going through the cover making it harder to put the bolts in... It would be quite easy I would think on your car.

While you have the intakes off, put on the felpro all metal lower intake gasket, so you don't have to worry about coolant leaking into the motor and taking out the bearings. Those plastic gaskets always fail sooner or later. And do a oil change and then coolant flush when you are done with it all. New plugs too, and wires if it needs it.

**Talontwoswords** · 10-12-2007, 03:40 PM

I've searched the forum, and the closest thread I've come up with that is similar to my problem is this one:

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http://www.60degreev6.com/showthread.php?t=34529&highlight=loss+power

I like this theory (from the thread):

"I have seen these motors blow the LIM gasket in such a way that coolant will lightly spray on the closest rocker when it's under pressure (but not a large enough amount to show in the oil as it's usually burnt out by the heat of the motor), and after the motor is turned off it effectively "washes" the said rocker and lifter and they scream after a cold start."

The reason I think it is a valve/lifter problem and not the chain or main bearings is because of the intermittent lack of power issue, and the other variables such as the addition of the valvemedic solvent (it helped for a while-then noise/power loss came back).

I would guess if it were a bearing or the chain, etc, these would not make a intermittent loss of power and the noise would always be present (or would it?). Piston slap doesn't cause loss of power does it?

Anyway, I hate to waste money on a new set of lifters for nothing, but I'll look over it somemore before taking the plunge. It needed that gasket anyway.

**IsaacHayes** · 10-12-2007, 04:03 PM

I never noticed lack of power with the chain, as it didn't skip a tooth and I guess it didn't stretch enough to retard the timing as I didn't notice a bunch of power when I replaced it. But it would quieten down after it warmed up. The chain was loose and would snap when it got tension on it and the guide rubber was hardened into hard plastic and worn. Being quieter after warm it still was noisy though. Might be something to do while you have it apart though for a quiet motor when you're done. Shouldn't be too hard on a W body like I said.

You could take the plugs out and turn it over by hand and listen to see if it's making a noise.

**Talontwoswords** · 10-19-2007, 11:53 PM

Update:

Cleaned out the intake ports on heads best I could (slight "hardening of the arteries).

I replaced the following on the vehicle:

valve lifters, LIM gasket (felpro metal), spark plug wires, camshaft sensor (wire insulation had dissolved near base).

Torqued all bolts at or near to Haynes repair manual specs. (I hope).

Cranked it up for the first time...and knocking noise still there.

Changed oil and put in AC-Delco filter

Cranked and drove car around for 3-4 miles, even got it up to 80 mph on the interstate.

It drives a little better or the same before it had any problems, little more power, very smooth-no loss of power (yet). However there is still that darn knock noise (only audible when I slow down or stop the car in idle-it's not that loud, but it's easily heard).

I followed Haynes instructions in troubleshooting for diagnosing crankshaft/worn bearings/piston problems/noise. I disconnected each spark plug, one at a time, then turned the engine on each time. The noise was present during the six cranks. The book says if the noise stops when a plug is disconnected, then there is trouble with the low end. It never did stop.

I'm going to take the valve covers off again when I have time and check all th e bolts. If that doesn't stop it, i have not choice but to take it to a mechanic. And yes, it may be the chain still, but my stethoscope doesnt hear anything from that area. The noise is sorta apparent if i hold the scope to the exhaust manifold. Sounds like two metal surfaces coming together with a *clack*.

I might can get a sound clip up if I can figure out how to do it. Thanks for everyone's help.

Also, the idle fluctuates a little upon startup then levels out after 10 seconds or so. Must have a vacuum leak somewhere.

**Talontwoswords** · 10-19-2007, 11:57 PM

oh yeah, i'm going to replace the fuel filter, just in case (why not?).

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