Need advice... Hybrid or RWD Carmaro 3.4L

[WhiteRaider]

OK, I've been gathering information and parts for my 3100 swap into my 4x4 for a while now. At this point, I have a couple of problems to deal with. They're not huge, but they will cost some money and I feel like I'm at a decision point.

I have, in my posession, a 2002 Buick Century engine that ony has 27K on it. Unfortunately, the oil pan will not work in my 4x4s configuration. When I purchased the engine, I mistakenly thought that I could just use a pan off of one of the older engines with a little modification. This doesn't appear to be the case, so I"m stuck with trying to fabricate an oil pan which is out of my league. Also, the stock pan is aluminum which makes cutting and combining two pans unlikely without some serious money. I don't even know if they made 660 4x4 pans in aluminum. Anyway, that is going to cost some money to overcome since I'll have to farm it out.

Another problem is that the motor mounts on the engine are fairly expensive since there aren't really any RWD mounts out there for the drivers side. I'm looking at about $200 for a set of unwelded mounts, plus the cost of having them welded together (I suck at welding and wouldn't want to assemble the mounts. )

So, at this point, I figure that I'm out about $500 or so at least on top of whatever other problems come up.

At this point, I figure I might be better off doing either a 3.4l Camaro block and putting in a HT Crate engine cam, or getting a RWD 2.8 or 3.1l block and putting my crank and pistons in it.

The Pros and cons for each, I figure are:

The 3.4l swap has been widely done, is proven, and would be easy. It should work fine with the 7730 ECU and wiring harness that I already have. Engine mounts are no problem. On the downside, it will be hard to find a cheap 3.4l engine that has low mileage and doesn't need a rebuild. It will also probably have less power than the hybrid with the post 2k upper.

The Hybrid option would give me the performance benefits of the post 2k upper engine. That would eliminate the mount problem. Assuming that I can find a block that will take my pistons, I already have the parts for the lower since they probably aren't very worn at 27K. Also, the heads should be in fantastic condition at this low mileage. On the downside, the machine shop work on the lower might cost a lot of money.

1) So, do you guys see any flaws in my logic?

2) If so, what are they?

3) Which option would you guys recommend (with a third option of continuing on with the 3100 fwd block)?

4) Does anyone have a ballpark idea for what it would cost to dissasemble a short block, have it hot tanked, tested for cracks, and then have them remove crank, pistons, and pieces from my engine to transplant into the rwd block and have it re-cammed? I'm assuming that I can reuse most of my 3100 parts. If it sounds like it will cost a lot, I might do better to sell or part out the 3100 and move on to a 3.4L.

Anyway, I'm too far into this project with the tranny, transfer case, and ECU to switch engine types, so I'm going to stick with the 660. In retrospect, it may have been better to start with the 3.4l RWD engine or use a 4.3.

Thanks in advance!

[Doubt_Incarnate]

right now, with already having the 3100, id find a rwd 3.1 and start with that. that would just bolt in, and you can use your 3100 internals and topside with the exception of the cam, lifters, and timing set. if you go with the hybrid your going to have to make certain your ecu can set it up for DIS because a distributor wont fit with the 3100 intake. exhaust manifolds would have to be another issue. i know the iron head manifolds wont bolt to aluminum heads, but maybe you'll be able to fit the stock 3100 maniflds and run a pipe down the passenger side and everything would work, other wise that would need some work like custom headers, or modifying a set.

[StudlyCamaro]

http://www.fastlouis.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35973

cheap 3.4L for sale about an hour east of saint louis MO

[WhiteRaider]

http://www.fastlouis.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35973

cheap 3.4L for sale about an hour east of saint louis MO

How many miles does it have?

[Guest]

I did pretty much what you are planning.

Here's the issues:
RWD block has no provisions for a crank position sensor. Except the 3.4, from the F-body (and crate), which does have the sensor hole.

FWD block has no provisions for the driver side mount, which if you are paying $200 for an UNwelded mount there is something wrong, also the fact that there are no mounts for this readily availbe, makes me think this is a "universal" mount, meaning it's a few plates of steel with holes drilled in it a certain points.
FWD block (genIII) uses an aluminium pan, which will need to be modified, there were no 4x4 pans for this engine, since it was only transverse mount.

Exhaust manifolds/headers will need to be fabricated, though genI headers can be modified to fit the genIII heads. The stock manifolds can not (easily).

The power steering pump bracket needs to be slightly modified and an adaptor plate made for the end of the head. the genI and III bolt patterns are slightly different.

The genI timing cover is to be used, but a grinder needs to be used on the very top part, to clearance it for the thermostat housing of the genIII intake.

I can't tell you about the Alternator or air pump mounts, since I moved my alternator down to where the air pump used to be and fabricated a new tensioner pulley mount, for mine.

You'll probably want to convert to an e-fan too, since the stock mechanical fan runs VERY close to the upper rad hose, the way the genIII thermostat housing is situated.

BTW, I used an ECM and wiring harness (modified) from an '88 Cavalier.

Here's a few pics:



In this pic, you can see the bracket for the tensioner pulley and the alternator:


Just a pic of how it was shortly before I took the top end off, for upgrades.

[WhiteRaider]

I've been admiring your work on that Jimmy for a while. That thing looks awesome! I'll probably use your swap as a general blueprint for mine.. sans spooly thing.

which if you are paying $200 for an UNwelded mount there is something wrong

Yeah, I know it's expensive, but it is pretty custom. It's made specifically for the 60 degree FWD blocks and there is no other alternative that I can find. He sent me a picture of it and it looks like a high quality piece. He deals primarily with MG swaps and sells them pre-welded, but offers this universal kit for any vehicle.

I was originally hoping to skip the hybrid part, but the oil pan screws it up big time.

RWD block has no provisions for a crank position sensor. Except the 3.4, from the F-body (and crate), which does have the sensor hole.

I was hoping that the 3.1l blocks had the sensor hole. If not, I imagine that I can get the machine shop to drill and tap a hole that will line up with the reluctor wheel.

I'm hoping to find a block that doesn't need to be bored out to save some bucks by re-using my low mileage pistons. This isn't going to be a high performance engine, so I'm trying to do it as cheap as possible. I'll spend money where it needs to be spent though.

Do these blocks wear very much or are my chances of fitting my existing 3100 pistons into a used block a pipe dream?

Exhaust manifolds/headers will need to be fabricated, though genI headers can be modified to fit the genIII heads. The stock manifolds can not (easily).

I was hoping to get out easy on this one by using the stock exhaust and crossover. I think that I can just move it forward in the engine compartment enough to make it work. My 2.6l I4 engine is a bit larger than the 3.1 so I shouldn't have any space problems. IF not, then I'll work on some headers.

You'll probably want to convert to an e-fan too, since the stock mechanical fan runs VERY close to the upper rad hose, the way the genIII thermostat housing is situated.

Definitely. I'm planning on running dual electric fans in there.

I'm sure I'll have a bunch of questions for you as I go through this process. I guess it's time to hunt for a used block in the pick 'n pulls this weekend...

Cheers!

[WhiteRaider]

I'm gonna ditch the 3100...

After thinking about this a lot, I'm going to ditch the 3100 and get a 3.4l motor from a Camaro. It will give out enough power for my application and should be easier. Since the swap also involves tranny, xfer case, and ECU/wiring harness, I figure that I was getting too ambitious.

I put the engine up for sale or trade for a 3.4l camaro engine in the buy/sell/trade section. I'm located in Dallas.

Cheers!

[Guest]

RE: I

Good choice in going for the 3.4. The RWD 3.1 blocks also did not have the crank sensor hole. Drilling the block was an option that my grandfather and I looked at, when I first started the franken60 build. There were three options:

-machining a piece to bolt or weld to the block, and then bore this out for proper location.
Problems with this: weakening of the block in this area, if the new part is not welded on, more potential for leaks, difficult to set-up, since the block itself would need to be machined as well.
-Modify a distributer to have a small version of the reluctor wheel.
Problems: There would need to be twice as many notches (due to the distributer turning at half crank RPM), and when we are dealing with a wheel that is only about an inch to an inch and a half, this would be difficult and resolution would probably be lost.
-Create a new crank trigger from sctrach on out side of block.
Problems: High level of fabrication skills and equipment needed, Due to the location of the reluctor wheel (in my set-up) all engien driven accessories (Alt, PS, WP, etc) pulleys need to be spaced out, equal to the thickness of the new reluctor wheel.

Yes, I went probably the most difficult way, but saw the benifits as well, I could make it adjustable, so I can change the base timing, believe me, this was needed in my application. It was an all new part, that allows me to transfer the set-up to a different block, without any addition maching required.

I had planned on doing exactly what you are proposing, to use the 3100 pistons, but when I pulled my donor engine apart, it had already been rebuilt at .030" over, so I had no choice but to get new pistons. Federal Mogul Hypereutectic, still look almost new after 20,000+ kms of HARD abuse (I have the top end off, to upgrade. ) I got another block later on, that had very LITTLE wear on that I probably could have used the 3100 pistons with, so be forewarned, it's a hit and miss situation.

What vehicle is this going in, for some reason I keep picturing an S-series PU/SUV.

The genI RWD manifolds could be made to work, but would require welding up the outside of the bolt holes so that they can be slotted, better yet, weld up the bolt holes as well, and redrill them. Also the port shape will need to be modified to use that extra flow of the exhaust ports from the genIII heads. This is why I would recommend at least starting with headers, they would be easier to modify.
If you were refering to using the 3400 exhaust manifolds, don't bother, you'll have to move the engine foward about 6" (off the top of my head), which would then create even worse problems with the oil pan, that you already have issues with.

I don't mind answering questions.

[WhiteRaider]

What vehicle is this going in, for some reason I keep picturing an S-series PU/SUV.

This is going into an '87 Dodge Raider. Basically, it's a rebadged 2 door Mitsubishi Montero. Right now, it has a huge 2.6l I4 engine. The thing is a gas hog and only puts out a little over 100 horses. The 60 degree swap would be a huge upgrade performance and MPG wise.

If you were refering to using the 3400 exhaust manifolds, don't bother, you'll have to move the engine foward about 6" (off the top of my head), which would then create even worse problems with the oil pan, that you already have issues with.

Ouch. The FWD parts just got too ugly. By going SFI with a re-cammed donormaro 3.4l, I can use headers from Jeeps, Isuzus, or S series trucks. That will solve that problem...

Cheers!

[WhiteRaider]

The RWD 3.1 blocks also did not have the crank sensor hole. Drilling the block was an option that my grandfather and I looked at, when I first started the franken60 build. There were three options:

-machining a piece to bolt or weld to the block, and then bore this out for proper location.
Problems with this: weakening of the block in this area, if the new part is not welded on, more potential for leaks, difficult to set-up, since the block itself would need to be machined as well.

Raven, there may be a solution to this which would keep my hybrid options alive...

1990 blocks, casting #s 14092219, 10065459, 10118618 and 1991-93 blocks, casting #s 10118653 and 10110519 all had the bosses for the crank position sensor making it easy to drill these out without effecting the structural integrity of the block. These blocks were the ones for the FWD minivans and the RWD Isuzus.

If I could find one on a 4x4 Isuzu, it would already have the correct oil pan and would br a relatively easy rebuild using the lower pieces from my newer block. This would just leave acquiring accessories and custom pushrods as the remaining problems which should be easily overcome. I think there are a few of these at my local pull a part where I can get a shortblock for less than a hundred bucks. I'll have to check it out when I go there.

The 91-93 blocks have reinforcing ribbing and Xs on the sides of the blocks so I could probably get a pretty good oversize bore if I found one of these - or I got lucky and it didn't need to be bored, just leave it and use my existing pistons.

[Guest]

The RWD 3.1 blocks also did not have the crank sensor hole. Drilling the block was an option that my grandfather and I looked at, when I first started the franken60 build. There were three options:

-machining a piece to bolt or weld to the block, and then bore this out for proper location.
Problems with this: weakening of the block in this area, if the new part is not welded on, more potential for leaks, difficult to set-up, since the block itself would need to be machined as well.

Raven, there may be a solution to this which would keep my hybrid options alive...

1990 blocks, casting #s 14092219, 10065459, 10118618 and 1991-93 blocks, casting #s 10118653 and 10110519 all had the bosses for the crank position sensor making it easy to drill these out without effecting the structural integrity of the block. These blocks were the ones for the FWD minivans and the RWD Isuzus.

If I could find one on a 4x4 Isuzu, it would already have the correct oil pan and would br a relatively easy rebuild using the lower pieces from my newer block. This would just leave acquiring accessories and custom pushrods as the remaining problems which should be easily overcome. I think there are a few of these at my local pull a part where I can get a shortblock for less than a hundred bucks. I'll have to check it out when I go there.

The 91-93 blocks have reinforcing ribbing and Xs on the sides of the blocks so I could probably get a pretty good oversize bore if I found one of these - or I got lucky and it didn't need to be bored, just leave it and use my existing pistons.

Thos blocks all have the starter on the wrong side, meaning the FWD position, so you would be into drilling and tapping those holes on the other side, if there is enough material.
I don't know about the mount bosses though, I believe they are in the RWD location and pattern.

You're easiest and probably best bet will be to make a new external crank sensor, for an existing block, like I did. Yeah it's more time and effort now, but in the long run it will work out much better, especially if you ever need to replace the block.

[WhiteRaider]

Thos blocks all have the starter on the wrong side

Since this is a totally custom swap, I can use the drivers side using a fwd starter. No biggie. Also, if I have to, drilling the block is something that doesn't concern me. If I'm getting the machine shop to do the CPS hole so they can do that too. I've read about people who do it with a hand drill so it can't be that hard.

I don't know about the mount bosses though, I believe they are in the RWD location and pattern.

Yep, the mount bosses are definitely in the RWD location. I haven't been able to find any core 3.4l blocks or I would not hesitate to go that route. This just gives another option.

but in the long run it will work out much better, especially if you ever need to replace the block.

In the long run doesn't concern me all that much. I'll still have to rebuild a RWD block with FWD pistons, so there's already a lot of work there. There will also be other engine options down the road like the RWD VVT engines and stuff so when I wear this one out in 200K+ there might be something that's more powerful and gets better mpg out there. Plus, I'll keep an eye out in the yards for a 3.4l block to keep around and tinker with...

If I sell my 3100 engine, it may not matter. However, if I find a good donor block before that, I may have to do it. I'm dying to start wrenching. All this theoretical stuff hurts my brain.

[bszopi]

I have a CAD file on the site for an external crank trigger. Its a mirror of the trigger on the crank. If you want to go that route, it would be easy to give to a machine shop and I'm sure they could easily fabricate one from the drawing.

[WhiteRaider]

Brad, thanks for the offer. What exactly would the advantage of going through the expense of having a custom piece machined? Where would you put it?

Having the block drilled and tapped for the sensor seems like a fairly easy procedure, but building an external system sounds expensive and difficult. Also, can't you just advance spark by tuning the ECU?

[sharkey]

there isnt the area to drill a hole for the sensor in the block. you would have to add material, then drill it. the external peice would likely end up being cheaper in the end result.

as for setting timing, yes it could be done by an external crank trigger set up, however tuning the ecm is easier.