60 degree v6 in a Suburban?

[b1jetmech]

Hello everyone,

My first post. Been a member for a while to gather info on the 660 v6 which I admire.

I was inspired by Fords Ecoboost F-150's performance and how well it drives using a small displacement engines under boost.

Now my question is as the title states, swapping a 660 V6 into a 94's suburban 4x4.

I had a couple engines in the Suburban from 305 to 454 and 6.5 diesel. You can guess which engine was the most fum to drive. It currently has a carbed 350 vortec.

Well, I like my suburban because it's the best cruiser to drive. Hauls the family with plenty of room to spare. But with $4.00 dollar gas it's hurts to fill it up.

So I'm thinking of using a RWD 660V6 out of a third gen camaro/firebird. A 2.8 or 3.4 under boost. The 660's strike me has bullet proof engines that can handle some abuse and heavy loads.

I'm leaning to the 2.8 because low end torque they offer even under boost. I like the 3.4 but it has a higher rpm torque that wont kick in til later to move the heavy burb'. I can swap the 2.9's upper end on a 3.4 but the compression would be too high for boost, right?

The current tranny is a 700R4 so a simple adapter would bolt to a 660 engine.

The Suburban weights 5,300 lbs. With the V6 swap it would drop down to 5,100 lbs est. Because of the smaller engine and radiator. The Buick Enclave weighs 4,900 lbs and is equipped with the 3.6 v6. So I don't think I would be far off.

Do you think the 660 would offer gas mileage increase to the Suburban?

Chase

[Superdave]

I wouldn't touch the old Gen 1 RWD engines for this app.

The newer FWD Gen 3 engines can be fitted with the RWD timing cover and accessories, flipped around and bolted in with some custom mounts. You'll get a much stronger block with better oiling and heads that are lightyears ahead of the 80's stuff.


IIRC Mars (a member here) was pushing between 400 and 500 HP out of his 3500 V6 in an 88 Camaro and running deep 11's. I bet something like that with the proper cam and a good tune would move around your suburban pretty well.

[b1jetmech]

Could the mounts from a third gen camaro/firebird be used or will I have to make them?

Does the 3500 have steel internals(rods/crank)?

[Superdave]

With a little creativity you could probably use SBC mounts, i almost did on mine. I did end up just cutting plates for both sides and just welding square tubing between them though. The Gen 3 engines have different bosses on the engine than the Gen 1 so either way you'll have to do a little work.

Most of the 3500's seem to have the forged steel crank, they have powdered metal rods like the LS engines. I've beat the snot out of mine at the track, only had 1 rod bearing fail but i think that was a freak thing. The engine only had like 2K miles on it at that point and i was spinning it past 7K. I swapped the crank out with a spare, dropped in a spare piston/rod with the original rings and a used bearing. That was 2 cars, about 70 passes and 2k+ miles ago.

the older 3400's have a regular iron crank but forged rods


I'm at about 350 HP with my 3500 with no boost... just a good cam, good porting, headers and a decent tune. It's a handful in a 3K lb car.

[NateD4]

I'd say go 3.9L with Displacement on demand you get the best of both worlds.

[geoffinbc]

You might see a mileage improvement over a carbed 350 but not anything like the ecoboost gets. Ford employs much more tricks than twin turbos to get the mileage it does. The other thing that everyone forgets about that engine is that the moment it is loaded down the mileage drops like a ROCK. Ask someone who tows 5000 to 7000 lbs with it. I guarantee they are getting single digit mileage numbers. If you have to use boost to keep the load moving then your efficiency goes way down. I think you would be better off to put in an LS junkyard motor with the EFI in tact. One from a modern Suburban should move you plenty fast enough and give you the same or better mileage in your truck since yours would be lighter than a modern equivalent.

[b1jetmech]

I decided for now to stay with a small block chevy.

However, I do want to try this just for the sake of tryin' down the road. I'll start off with a small valve head 2.8 out of a third gen. The junk yard here has plenty of them, 3400s, 3500s and a couple of 3900s all for $250.00 out the door...with a 30 day warranty. Can't beat that.

Drove a friends Ecoboost F150 and was impressed with the power and it can tow 11,000lbs...Wow.

[geoffinbc]

For less money than a twin turbo swap you could bolt on one of the self learning EFI systems that are out there. The Holley one really stands out because they offer a lifetime warranty on the ECM. Everyone who uses them are realizing good mileage gains over their carb. If you drive a lot you get paid back in 1 to 2 years.

[LeftVentricle]

I would stay with a V8. Suburbans are far too heavy for a six to lug around. You'd have to have the rear end regeared really super short to compensate for the lack of oomph, and that will tank your fuel economy. Yes, a 3.9 makes close to the same horsepower as a Vortec 350 (240 vs. 255), but it's the torque that matters in such a large vehicle. The Vortec makes something like 100 ft-lbs more. "LM7" is your answer. That's the 5.3 out of a GMT800 truck (2000-2006). Swap on some LS heads and a hotter cam and you've got yourself quite the wagon.

[js35]

I like your v6 idea, but whats your budget, fabrication and electronics/wiring skill level? Having done several radical engine swaps, fab and tuned many turbo kits I can tell that you probably want the cheapest and least amount of work to get your goal which appears to be increase fuel economy and be reliable. I have seen people reliably make incredible hp numbers with lots of boost on completely stock engine internals, and get good mileage when off of it, but they were very well tuned. Me and friend were dreaming up an "eco cyclone" turbo 4.3 to replace his tbi 350 in his pickup not too long ago. I was thinking 4.3 because I have found that the mating of the engine and trans are the hardest part for me, since most machinist tools are still on the wishlist. Lucky for you i think the 60 will bolt up with minor mods according to this thread: http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthre...ellhousing-rwd. I would keep the stock 'burb radiator, save money and hassle and it most likely has needed extra cooling, fab the radiator hoses, that's cheap and easy.

Running a small engine hard is more efficient than running a big engine under light load in theory, due to pumping losses and a bunch of scientific stuff that would consume pages but it is untrue for one main reason: the factory tune and the EPA. Most cars go into "open loop" and go mega rich after about 40-50% throttle/engine load for two main reasons, just as turbo cars do it to suppress detonation under boost, the fuel is used as a coolant to keep cylinder temps down as to tame the NOX emissions boogyman and ensure the catalytic converter and engine itself make it through their warranty period. Lean it out and you get gains in power in efficiency, I am a fan of water injection so I like to lean it out further and use water to absorb the increased heat instead of gas, its cheaper. Lean burn cruise is another big gas saver. You can play with piggy backs and sensor foolers and things like that and try to trick the facory ecu, but there is always some sort of repercussion, or you can kill a bunch of birds with one stone(imobilizer systems for example) and just go standalone, its not as hard or expensive as you think, check out Megasquirt, they are dirt cheap and have tons of support. The bigboys like holley and AEM are nice if you have the thousands they cost. I would just go fwd 3.4l and a single 16g turbo from an evo8, both can be had used cheap. There are probably a few 3.4l turbo members here that would share their MS tuning file with you to get you to really good start. A wideband o2 is a must for tuning, but a dyno is not(def helps).
I hear ya on moving the fam with room to spare, not as cool but I took the easy route, picked up a montana with a preinstalled 3.4, I'm working on its already impressive gas mileage, soon to be megasquirted and hopefully one day one of those 16g turbos on my bench will make it under the hood. I hope you go forward with this project, im very curious to see how it turns out. Btw, ford eco boost mileage sucks http://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewt...p?f=80&t=99115

[b1jetmech]

It's still a toss up but the 4.3 v6 is on the "short" list. I also found LY7 v6 at our friendly neighborhood salvage yard for $300 dollars. I know it will have some trans adapter issues but the enlightenment dow pins line up with standard chevy 700R4 which will help with fabricating an adapter. For the ECM, I would use an 7730 ECM because of the LY7's DIS, just would have to fabricate a crank trigger.

Because of the constant below freezing weather we are blessed with, I haven't had a chance to pull an engine. So while I await for good weather I'm still deciding with what engine o go with.

I might wait for turbo to come later. Ideally it's best to fabricate the exhaust plumbing with the engine out and minimize downtime but the turbo set up would be put off. However, I don't have my welder anymore so I would have to rely on someone else which takes the fun out of it.

Oh and my resume for recent engine swaps is I did five in a year and half to the suburban.

1. Original TBI 350
2. Swapped in 6.5 diesel N/A
3. Swapped in 305 TBI out of 92' caprice
4. Swapped in another 6.5 diesel N/A
5. 454 swap (Oh yeah!)
6. Vortec 350(carbed)

and last but not least the 4BT swap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV903Ai7Uhg

From that list, we can tell which engine would be the most fun...454. But current gas prices couldn't support long term driving...that engine SUCKED gas! But it moved that Suburban like it weighed nothing. It was fun out pacing other cars with the tranny down shifting.

The 6.5 diesels delivered me 20 mpg around town driving which is very good. But I got tired of glowing almost every start up and getting jet lag from highway driving.

My education level for tuning is Pre-school. So I have a lot to learn through trial and error hopefully without sacrificing an engine or two. So I will be posting the questions when they arise.

Yeah, the Ford eco boost MPG is not too good despite the excellent power output. An ecoboost owner friend of mine said if he can just disable the turbo's completely (like by pass) during highway driving his mileage would be in the advertised territory.

Notice this years RAM 1500 3.7 v6 Pentastar has an advertised MPG of 25. I've read there close to that. Of course it's backed by an 8 speed transmission with a 4.7 first gear ratio, so that helps. And fords 3.7 v6 F150 actually gets in the 22-23 range. So I think the automakers are getting these small v6's to work in full size trucks.

Keep us updated with the Montana project because I have a chevy venture. There's nothing like destroying the pride of sports car owner with a "sleeper"

I'm think of the mega squirt also but it depends how far I can go with the 7730 ECM.

Thanks for the advice!

Chase

[carbon]

The 3500 (LX9) in our 4300 lb. Saturn Relay has to work pretty hard. It's a pig on gas, averaging around 18-20 MPG with a 3.29 4T56E... I can't imagine adding another 1000 lbs. before cargo and people without boost to help it out...

[Superdave]

Just a stock 5.3 ls and 700 r4 would do really well in there.

[js35]

Just a stock 5.3 ls and 700 r4 would do really well in there.

I do like that engine, mileage would be better than the carbed 350, would be a lot easier than a turbo v6 but might net worse mileage, have to bring the harness and ecm with it, probably have to be flashed to run without the rest of the immobilizer system. guess its up to the OP how much work he wants to do

The 3500 (LX9) in our 4300 lb. Saturn Relay has to work pretty hard. It's a pig on gas, averaging around 18-20 MPG with a 3.29 4T56E... I can't imagine adding another 1000 lbs. before cargo and people without boost to help it out...

sounds like your on par with epa estimates, around town kills these vans, i average less in mine because she short trips it around town most of the time, its only when it gets over 45ish mph and warm enough for the pcm to lock the torque convertor. Then the amazing mileage starts, aero drag is exponential with speed, so the slower you can go with TC locked, the better the mileage, I have seen mid to upper 40's on the scangauge with the cruise on at about 40-45mph, not too many places where you can do that though, its 30mph stop and go or 80 where I live. Instrumentation and driving habits are key, get a scangauge, calibrate it well, then adjust the nut behind the wheel

It's still a toss up but the 4.3 v6 is on the "short" list. I also found LY7 v6 at our friendly neighborhood salvage yard for $300 dollars. I know it will have some trans adapter issues but the enlightenment dow pins line up with standard chevy 700R4 which will help with fabricating an adapter. For the ECM, I would use an 7730 ECM because of the LY7's DIS, just would have to fabricate a crank trigger.

I'm not too familiar with gm's ecu's, I left the chevy dealer in '03, how tune-able is this ecm and how much does tuning equipment cost?

Because of the constant below freezing weather we are blessed with, I haven't had a chance to pull an engine. So while I await for good weather I'm still deciding with what engine o go with.

I might wait for turbo to come later. Ideally it's best to fabricate the exhaust plumbing with the engine out and minimize downtime but the turbo set up would be put off. However, I don't have my welder anymore so I would have to rely on someone else which takes the fun out of it.

yeah if your trailblazing like this I agree, get it running first, but keep it in mind when re-engineering, and I like to make things so its easy to pull the assembly if needed, like mounting/wiring the pcm so the engine can be removed with the harness. every man needs a welder, get it back lol

Oh and my resume for recent engine swaps is I did five in a year and half to the suburban.

1. Original TBI 350
2. Swapped in 6.5 diesel N/A
3. Swapped in 305 TBI out of 92' caprice
4. Swapped in another 6.5 diesel N/A
5. 454 swap (Oh yeah!)
6. Vortec 350(carbed)

and last but not least the 4BT swap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV903Ai7Uhg

From that list, we can tell which engine would be the most fun...454. But current gas prices couldn't support long term driving...that engine SUCKED gas! But it moved that Suburban like it weighed nothing. It was fun out pacing other cars with the tranny down shifting.

The 6.5 diesels delivered me 20 mpg around town driving which is very good. But I got tired of glowing almost every start up and getting jet lag from highway driving.

My education level for tuning is Pre-school. So I have a lot to learn through trial and error hopefully without sacrificing an engine or two. So I will be posting the questions when they arise.

Yeah, the Ford eco boost MPG is not too good despite the excellent power output. An ecoboost owner friend of mine said if he can just disable the turbo's completely (like by pass) during highway driving his mileage would be in the advertised territory.

Notice this years RAM 1500 3.7 v6 Pentastar has an advertised MPG of 25. I've read there close to that. Of course it's backed by an 8 speed transmission with a 4.7 first gear ratio, so that helps. And fords 3.7 v6 F150 actually gets in the 22-23 range. So I think the automakers are getting these small v6's to work in full size trucks.

Keep us updated with the Montana project because I have a chevy venture. There's nothing like destroying the pride of sports car owner with a "sleeper"
I'm think of the mega squirt also but it depends how far I can go with the 7730 ECM.

Thanks for the advice!

Chase

I have already embarrassed quite a few drivers on the road, tunning takes some reading,time and a wide band, give it try, you sound well qualified.
you cant beat a diesel, look into an ALH from a vw, mine has over 300ftlbs after a reflash and injectors, I pulled my buds caravan from a busy street when it broke down with it and floored it, he said it put him back in his seat, I felt like i was towing an anchor but easily merged with traffic lol

[carbon]

The problem is that the nut behind the wheel of this particular van is a certain female and when I ask why the average fuel economy always goes up when I drive it, she just looks away... Regardless, the thing is still a pig. The last U-vans had so much frontal area, it is a hopeless case for aero on the freeway too.



Mine is more awesome with alloy wheels and roof rack spars...