3800 Vs 3400/3500

[SappySE107]

Yeah, he wants to talk about the DOHC, he can go to the DOHC section. Ill school his sorry ass with DOHC talk though. As for the 3400, how about the 3500...or dont you wanna talk about that cause it has better internals and will be destroying the 3800s records. Or we can just use a 3900, take away any displacement advantange...and laugh all the way to the finish line. hahaha, so sad.

If you havent seen a single blown 3800, you aren't looking hard enough. Ive read about a few, and I dont even give a fuck about 3800s to LOOK for those types of posts. Look at the numbers though, 60V6 engines are in MORE vehicles than 3800s. 3100 and 3400 vehicles = more than 3800. They are also in cheaper cars, driven by younger owners. You must think us fools for your discussion is attempting to ignore so many variables.

[SappySE107]

If you are in germany, you can send me some beer! mmmm beer

[Cliff8928]

No 3400 was ever in a GTP, or any stock w-body for that matter. Totally different engine we're talking here.

Well, the new Monte Carlo and Impala have 3400s in base form..


Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740

[nocutt]

Free your mind guys...
danpuzak,
Don't bring Intense into this I have seen more blown 3x00 than 3800! Why? simple there are more of the 3x00 engines...lol! Not the point though...
The thread clearly states 3800 vs 3400/3500 why add 3.9? too much bias on this thread, here I was thinking I could get schooled but it seems to be the same ...ish "angle of separation" this or "HP/L". To be serious an no BSing, do you actually know why the 3800 never came in a stick?...I mean ever, ever? Yep it is a monster...TQ monster!! I don't care about numbers...it convolutes the issue...you see how numbers got Madza into trouble...it is so easy to fabricate? Few ppl in here might not have driven a (off topic again) 3.4 DOHC with a stick vs one with an auto...the difference is like night and day, I am trying to be objective here...not subjective like the most of you!!...so it is a 60 degree board...so? You just cannot afford to be blind? I love the 3x00 but I decided that to maximize the gains, why not go bigger (considering there was/is no aftermarket support)...folks keep on talking about the ability of the 3x00 to get 400hp..oh I don't doubt that...and don't blame it on aftermarket support or lack there of...the 60 degree community has the most creative folks on an individual basis, yet I have not seen the niche grow in almost 9 years...it seems to be the same ppl, the same faces...however the ideology has changed very much...to debacle the 3800...opinions are very interesting!! all it takes is for the blind, deaf and dumb to listen...and they follow! Look at what is happening in that CLUB

[bszopi]

When the thread was started, the 3900 was not a go. Therefore, that is why it was not included in the discussion. I will be more than happy to add it if you would like though. Something I was thinking about earlier also... Dan insisted on bringing up the Intense drag team and their 10-sec runs. What he didn't mention is that these guys are using wheelie bars to help keep the meat to the pavement. I can think of a 3.1L (yeah, the old one) that could probably easily be in the 10s if traction were not an issue. So why bring crap like that up? This is something I do NOT know, but are any of those 10-11 sec cars daily drivers? Be something interesting to know since it was brought into the discussion...

[nocutt]

Then we would have to bring the new 4.1 stroker...lol jusk joking
Ben besides the intense turbo, the rest are daily drivers, not that I really care...I still don't see the point to add "daily driver"...that is another can of worms! Curtis doesn't drive his daily (well I ASSume you were refering to him above...lol!) I am sure it is capable, but highly impropable...too many compromises, too much to loose?!?
I think the higher you go in power, the more displacements becomes a factor...especially on pushrod motors. I don't know anything about the 3.9, other than folks talking about it...will it be the newest marvel? maybe...maybe not! GM is trying so had to reinvent themselves...maybe this will be a winner, like the 3800 was/is?!? I however won't hold my breath

[Rhedalert]

Oh, and another note...

Notice how the fastest known Gran Prix in the world is powered by a 3800???

What is the fastest known Regal GS in N.A. powered by?
You guessed it.. The 3800

Check out www.intense-racing.com and check out the member cars, get a feel for the 10.9 second GTP....

Or maybe a 11.8 SSEi

Then theres also Scott Cooks 10.6 second run in a Gran Prix (3800)

I haven't found to many aftermarket dealers for the 3100 or 3400 on here, although there is quite a bit for the 3800 like intense, ADTR, Summit, Domestic Performance, and those are just off the top of my head.

If the 3800 is so bad, why would GM ever use it in the Regal, GN, Bonneville, Gran Prix, Impala, LeSabre, Lumina, Monte Carlo, Olds 88, Olds 98, Park Avenue, Firebird, Camaro, and Cutlass??
Thats 14 different applications that i thought of in less than a minute! I know there is MANY other cars that the 3800 was put into. Do you really think GM would put the same engine in so many cars if it was as bad as you make it seem to be?? I think we can safely assume GM would of put the best engine they had (for the application) in the specific vehicle.

I don't think a 3400 could pull a Park Avenue around for long, do you?

Can you honestly say a 3400 can be pushed to 600hp like the 3800 has been pushed to by the Intense Racing team? I don't think so
Horsepower isn't something i care to much about though, I am a fan of TORQUE, and i'm proud of owning plenty of that.

Matt

I was just wondering how it feels to spend all that time on the computer writing a waste of a post, yet I and most others here read maybe 1% of it. Pound for pound, your heavy, archaic, nail-sized valved, crankshaft snapping split-pin design ultra long skirted, plastic manifold 3800 will fall short. And don't even pretend to have an engine oh-so the same as what's in the Grand National

[SappySE107]

The camaro 3800 came in a stick. It has nothing to do with where the engines make torque, or how much. The cars the 3800s are in never got a manual option, for any engine that they came with when the 3800 was offered (FWD). If there is one let me know. The reason the newer cars with 3800s dont have sticks is simple...they didnt sell. Look how many 5 speed 3.4 DOHC engines there are. This isn't a DOHC debate, but I will point out that their 5 speed sales were small, and stopped in 93 for the W bodies. The smaller cars still have 5 speeds because younger people own them, or people who want gas milage with a 4 cylinder engine.

The 3500 may be able to be bored to 3.9 liters...so as far as I know, it still counts for a worked over 3500 engine.

R/S ratio, angle, piston speed, crank design...all those are important for an engine. The only thing the 3800 has for it that I would ever remotely care about are its iron heads. That would be for extreme boost. For efficiency, I would like to know how the 3800 fares NA vs a 3400 or 3500. It takes a form of boost to wake up the 3800 (or a shitload of money, cause I know 1 person is in the 13s with theirs, though I dunno what else was done to the car in terms of weight reduction). Track times aren't engine comparisons, they are gearing/ power to weight ratios. It is a discussion of engine theory for the most part on our end because no one around here has 10,000 bucks to dump into research and development. What takes a large company with a large following to do in 1 year would take is many years...which is where we are getting to now. Each passing year we do more collectively than the 3800 community. They use their wallets, we use our minds. Exceptions of course, someone has to develop their parts.

[geoffinbc]

What are you smoking??

How about this: Find me some blown 3800's, and we'll compare how many blown 3800's there are to how many blown 3400's there are

Good luck, because i have never seen a single blown 3800

Did you know theres a 3.0 engine that makes more power then your 3.4?

Oh and guess who sold it? FORD although it was built by Yamaha
220HP
Thats 5 hp more then the 3.4 from a 3.0!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Did you know GM made a freakin 2.3L with 190hp and 180 torque? Thats more or about the same as 3400's aswell. Who cares tere is a difference between all out performance, reliability and new emissions standards. You dont know shit.

Do you even know what the 3800 series III is all about? Nothing besides increased boost and electronic throttle control. But arent all GM cars getting electronic throttle control? Yea thats what I thought

The only thing I want of a 3800 is the factory supercharger which I would like to create a plate to fit the lower half of my 3.4L SFI intake and put my good old TBI on top of the supercharger. MMM I love custom mods.

[GPXSS]

like i said earlier.. with the release of the 3900, this thread is pointless.. there is nothing the 3800 has or will ever have to have any advantage over the 3900.

[nocutt]

Ok folks after crunching some numbers in the spirit of 'gearheadness' and bench racing...do not take it out of context

where Horsepower = (Torque x RPM)/ 5252


therefore TQ = ( HP x 5252)/RPM

I plotted numbers for 3800SC (1), 3800NA (2), 3900 (3), 3500 (4)
here goes:
(1). 240hp @ 5200 RPM= 242.4 lb/ft
(2). 205hp @ 5200 RPM= 207.0 lb/ft
(3). 240hp @ 5900 RPM= 213.6 lb/ft
(4). 200hp @ 5400 RPM= 194.5 lb/ft

Excluding all the technological cluters, if this cars were all geared the same (sticks to take better advantage of drivetrain loss and torque multiplication) and the only other factor been weight of the powertrain, (to make this more interesting this engines are all in the same car) which engine will dominate the quarter mile? (1320 only; no other circuit tracks because we all know which one will be the most fun to drive )
IMO it will be a close race especially with (1) & (2)...advancement in technology or not...the low end grunt of the 3800SC will make it pull out of the hole with some serious 60', but it seems to me that the 3900 would be a screamer at the top end, however with about only 214ft/lb at its Peak torque of 5900RPM it will be very debatable since the 3800SC has more area under the curve...so it would have covered a lot of ground before it would have started to run out of steam...the 3900 can hold each gear a little longer though...???

[SappySE107]

you are comparing 3800SC vs NA...this discussion is about the NA 3800, as in the engine itself, not the supercharger on top of it.

[nocutt]

you are comparing 3800SC vs NA...this discussion is about the NA 3800, as in the engine itself, not the supercharger on top of it.

Boooooo! Getting more bias aren't we? I thought it is "run what you brung"...the 3800SC comes of the show room with the SC...you take the SC off..we are talking about an engine with almost 60%-75% volumetric efficiency ...If the L67 cannot be used then we are at a stalemate...you guys create so much hullaballob about old technology, but quickly draw a line...you don't see me saying the 3900 has advantages in the Cam design, head design, displacement, Engine management software do you? I guess there ain't no winning...

[SappySE107]

no, this isnt the run what you brung thread, this is an engine discussion.

[SappySE107]

engine management has nothing to do with it., cause you can run whatever computer on either, though you would lose DOD. It takes a SC to make the 3800 even worth talking about doesn't it.

Now, you can compare the L67 with its internals and whatnot...but the boost is a power added, just like putting a turbo on a 3500. I mean, this isn't limited to what GM put out because thats a lame discussion about what GM did...boring.

What about porting the 3800 heads, what kind of flow numbers can you get from it. What about combustion chamber design? There is plenty to discuss, but don't think this is NA vs SC.

Why is GM scrapping the 3800 and building up its 60V6 lineup?