Help me please! (I'm Australian, forgive me!)

[cheapracer]

Hey Guys :-)

I'm guessing this is an older question for many of you but bare with me and I'll tell you my story!

I am developing a budget kit car in the Ariel Atom genre which I intend to market in the US this year.

You can see a little bit here... http://www.flickr.com/cheapracer

Based on factors such as budget, performance, weight etc. I reckon your GM V6 fits the build very well but I have a problem. I am an Ozzie and we simply don't have the front wheel drive transverse V6 here and until recently, I hadn't even seen one. (Our biggest selling car here is the V6 3800 GM Holden Commodore but it's rear wheel drive).

Locally there is 2 transverse V6's being junked, a Pontiac Trans Sport and a Chev Lumina APV which are very rare here.

I want to develop basic engine mounts, trans mounts and suspension and need to know the following so/if I can use the above van items for jigging...

Is the basic block the same for all the transverse V6's so as I can make up mounts?

Is the auto trans mount placement the same as a manual?

Are the CV shaft lengths the same?

Are the CV inners the same for auto and manual as well as the shaft's length?

Are the brakes the same on the van as another GM sedan or/and is the van fairly common to find parts for at wrecking yards in the States? - maybe I can just base everything around the van's mechanicals, any problems foreseen with that?

Again sorry as they may seem like simpleton questions to those who see them everyday!

Mark :-)

[cheapracer]

And I am reading this forum like mad!

Some great info, thanks to those involved.

[geoffinbc]

No the mounts are not all the same. The older Gen II blocks are different than the newer Gen III blocks although not by much. The transmission bellhousing bolt pattern is the same on every 60 degree V6 and so is the flywheel/flexplate bolt pattern.

I am not sure on the CV shafts I am a RWD guy too.

Do not base your design on the APV Van. That used a FWD 3.1L with iron heads. It is the worst choice for performance. Your best bet is a late model 3400 or even a 3500. They are currently the most plentiful in North America

[cheapracer]

My aim is to provide a complete roller that people can source their own V6, tranny, shafts, uprights with brakes so which actual V6 is up to them - hence why I wanted to find info on the mounting points more than anything else.

My problem as mentioned, is that I can only get my hands on the van stuff to make the mounts up. I will take a trip to the yard on Thursday and get the vans info so we can decide what engine and driveline they actually have, could be lucky, the APV may be a 3400. I think the Trans Sport is a 3100.

Thanks for your tips too! :-)

[geoffinbc]

The Lumina APV vans used iron heads. But other vans like the Venture Van or Uplander were 3400 powered.

You should consider the 3.6L DOHC V6 if it will fit. We have good access to that engine. Its powerful, all aluminum, high reving and RWD configuration

[cheapracer]

Sorry Guys, you just don't get it, maybe I explained it badly, sorry.

Summary;

I want to sell a kit car with no motor or transmission.

I can only get the motors from the 2 vans at hand - I CAN NOT get any other motor, I am not in the USA, there are no other motors to choose from here. I want to use one of those motors to make the mounts for the chassis.

Those mounts will then hopefully accept the V6 that YOU CHOOSE to fit to the kit ("you" being a purchaser of a kit).

Example; If I make mounts to accept the 3100 V6 and transmission from the van, will people be able to put their own 3400 from a sedan onto those mounts?

Thanks for the effort though

[cheapracer]

Oh and the 3600 probably defeats the Locost principle and mine is RWD as in transversely mounted, not longitudally.

But would you know if the bellhousing is the same on the 3600 as the 3100/3400 etc?

Thanks again

[95Grand-Am]

In the US the Vans didn't get the 3400's until 96. Van never came with 3100's. So if the vans that are in the yard that you are looking at are newer than 96 they would probly work because they are plentiful in the yard in th US. But Vans are auto trans only.

[cheapracer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Lumina_APV

The Lumina APV started in 1991 and wasn't made after 1996.

It came first with the 3100, then the 3800 and lastly the 3400.

Yes, thanks, I am aware of the auto transmission thats why I asked if the mounting points are the same or not?

Thanks again for trying.

[geoffinbc]

Again the Lumina DID NOT come with a 3100. It came with a Gen I FWD 3.1L with Iron heads. And like I said before it does not have the same mounts as a 3400 or anything that is currently used. Making mounts for this engine is pointless because it is a DOG and has no power and no one wants it for performance. I understand you don't have the same engine choices as we do. You actually have better engines as far as I am concerned. Does the 3.6L engine come in any FWD platforms down there? Up here we have the 3.6L in FWD form. Otherwise I suggest you try and get your hands on a 3100/3400core even if it doesn't run. Or your last option is to ship a kit without mounts and the end client will simply have to make their own to mate to their specific engine.

[cheapracer]

Ahh, some progress.

Look at it from my eyes, how would I know that a 3100 and a 3.1 are not the same? 3.1 is 3100cc and unless told otherwise of course I think they are one and the same engine........thank you.

Now to totally clear it up, are you saying that the actual bolt holes cast into the block are not the same or just the engine brackets themselves?

I will try to get there this afternoon to identify the Lumina motor, the Trans Sport has the early "3.1" motor.

Without mounts I would lose more than half of my potential clients at a guess through both lack of skill to do it and laziness.

[geoffinbc]

Yes the cast in mounting bosses in the block are different. There are 3 3100cc engines.

Gen I 3.1L iron head found in RWD Camaro and Isuzu applications and the FWD Van application
Gen II 3.1L aluminum head (first design) In FWD car applications. Uses the same mounting bosses as the Gen I motor
Gen III 3.1L (named 3100 by GM) aluminum head (second design) Found in FWD applications only from as early as 93 on some models, all models by 95. Different mounts, different heads and different block than all previous motors. Same engine other than bore size as the 3400 which was introduced in 96 on the U van. These are most likely the most used V6 GM has made to date. Perhaps more than the 3800 (not including the older 3.8L though)

[manicmechanix]

This is getting confusing. What I think would be best for the U.S. market is mounts for the Gen III 3x00 motor with the engine mount on the front of the engine, not on the side like in some Venture vans and I think the Grand Prix. Actually, I think the Gen III 3x00 motors are drilled for both mounts (but don't quote me on this) and it might be best to provide both mounting options in the chassis if possible.

Someone else filled you in on the manual and automatic transmission bellhousings being the same. As far as the half shafts, they would vary in length depending on the track width of the model they came from of course, but as far as I know any model that carried that powertrain would work, probably just about any GM halfshaft that had would. So just pick one that best matches the track with you want and something common like the '97-03 Malibu, '99-'04 Grand Am, the '95-'03 Cavalier.

Is this race car going to be front engine or mid-engine? Either way if I were to build a budget racer, and this may be blesphemy on this forum, I think I would pattern it around the Ecotech. It's lighter and there's more manual transmission for it out there I think. And I don't know that it would be more expensive than the V6. Ideally I would make it mid-engine, but since this is a budget design and the Fiero didn't have an Ecotech and is nearing a classic, I would make it front longitudal engine/RWD patterned around the Pontiac Solstice (sp?). But lets not open that can of worms.

[WrathOfSocrus]

This is getting confusing. What I think would be best for the U.S. market is mounts for the Gen III 3x00 motor with the engine mount on the front of the engine, not on the side like in some Venture vans and I think the Grand Prix.

http://www.killerbv6.com/pictures.html

It already exists. If you are dropping a 3X00 in an S-10 you can either swap most of the gen3 parts to a rwd block or use the gen3 block and have to fab up a mount on one side. Making the oil pan fit and wiring it up for SFI would probably be more difficult.

For other rwd platforms it might be easier to use something like in the link above. It probably would make fabbing up the mounts a lot easier. It would take a bomb to remove the front cover from the engine, so it is probably about as strong of a mount as you can get.

Also from what I can tell the vans and the W bodies share the same passenger side axle. I think the 4T65 may be dimensionally different on the drivers side.I haven't measured or compared them yet but I will try to get more info on that.

[cheapracer]

Thanks Guys, very cool.

It's not a race car, more a sporty Sunday mountain car although theres nothing stopping you taking to the track in it.

Mid engined.

Ecotecs are fine, no complaint, just looking for some easy and cheap torque, not everybody wants buzz and gearchanges.

Today I had another look and theres a big "3800cc" cast on the block and it has cast iron heads - would that make it a L27?

The idea is that you take my chassis kit and go buy the whole running gear from front wheel drive XXX, bolt it in and go! (ahh if cars were only that easy )