Getrag Tranny .. 284/282

[SCREECH]

Well...I went to my friendly neighbourhood GM dealer. Spoke with the gentleman at the parts counter and gave him the part number from the transaxle. I told him the situation and asked if he could tell me if it was a Getrag or Isuzu. (As a funny side note, related to this thread, he said "Oh, you don't want a Getrag - you can't rebuild them! I then proceeded to inform him about the difference between the HM-282 and the HM-284) So he tells me that he can't tell from what's in the computer if it's an Isuzu or a Getrag. He says to me: "All it says is M32 5-speed manual transaxle." Arrrggg!!! I knew the option code as soon as he said it. So it WAS an M32 trans (flippin' Isuzu), not an MG2. Stupid blurry sticker. I e-mailed the guy earlier asking whether it said MG2 or M32 on the sticker, and his reply to me was simply that it was "Probably just a basic GM description of the part" but he never specified which it was. I suppose it's my fault for jumping the gun.

You know what, that's fine, though. Number one, now I don't have to drive to Wisconsin! Plus, boneyards in my area have a ton of the transaxles available. They usually want anywhere from $150-$400Cdn for 'em, but that's not too bad. I just got too damn giddy with the expectation of getting a brand freakin' new unit. I won't let THAT happen again!

[v6h.o.]

i was just going to say the same exact thing that Marty just said.

as soon as i saw you posted about a guy selling a 92-93 Getrag for a HO engine...

nope, i have a buddy that was looking at that same transmission,
here are the reasons its NOT a Getrag:

there is a pic where it shows 3 brass bolts, those bolts house the 3 DETENT ball and springs on an Isuzu.

in the pic of the bellhousing the Getrag has a Giant Black Rubber plug that is in one spot in the bellhousing that houses its 3 Shift Rail Detent's.

the Shifter Rail asm in the Izuzu bolts on just like the one in the pics there with a housing case bolt on peice.
the Getrag Only has a external Shift lever arm that bolts onto the external of the case, not an aluminum housing that bolts onto the case.

the end of the transmission the Getrag uses a large Brass plate that seals up the end case and bearings.

Isuzu's have 5th gear external to the case and a Large Aluminum end cover is bolted on to cover 5th gear, such as in the pics

the fact that it has the Sticker "made in Japan" also gives it dead away to an Isuzu transmission as those are a Japanesse designed transmission which GM did the same concept as with the Getrag, Bought an already designed transaxle from another company (they own part of Isuzu) and manufacture them cheaper in the US, US spec Isuzu's are different from teh actual stronger Japanesse spec Isuzu's however but thats another trans and another topic.

Sorry bud. your getting an Ishitzu, should have done more research to the transmission.

i rebuild these transmissions at work, have done many a ishitzu trans and Getrag/mucie/NVG style.
that is NOT a getrag.

[v6h.o.]

ok i didnt realize there was a 2nd page of topic and only replied to what was the last responces on the 1rst page.. i see you've found out its an ishitzu

[v6h.o.]

So I can picture how the 1990-1992 clutch slave works, just a slave bolted on the outside of a bellhousing, with the fork completely inside the bellhousing... so are you saying the 80's models had the fork actually protrude from the bellhousing?

Then there's '93-'94 having yet another type of "slave", ie. hydraulic release bearing.

yeah jon the old models had the slave's pivot point and ballsocket external to the case.

the early 90's models had the pivot point just inside the case of the trans, much the same as that pic of the Isuzu trans in the Ebay link.

and then there is your transmissions jon with the slave as a in bellhousing setup with it behind the throwout bearing.

[Juglenaut]

It all good...You just show me that I know very little to the exacting point, all I know is I got a getrag and have no harsh feeling towards it.

[SCREECH]

The only reason I didn't completely dismiss it initally as not being a Getrag is the possibility that, being a newer version, some things could have changed. That, and I couldn't find a single flippin' picture of an NVG-T550 ANYWHERE!!! If anyone's got some, please post 'em for reference. I had understood, thanks to specs published on some sites, that the Quad4 was ONLY mated to the Getrag. I'd hate to be the poor sod that got an Isuzu equipped one and actually USED the performance the Quad4s are capable of!

Yeah, so I e-mailed the guy in Wisconsin, and...hehe...his reply is kinda funny. I told him I can't use the transaxle, that I had expected that, being coupled to a Quad 4, that it was a Getrag. I'll just let his response speak for itself:

Ok. I could have told you they were Isuzu Transmissions. They are in Isuzu boxes. But as far as the numers go, I didn't know anything about them.

So, excuse me while I go hide in the corner! Obvious lack of communication with the seller on my part, and ignoring obvious signs due to my over-giddification. Like I said, I won't let THAT happen again!

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT:
There's a wreckers local to me that's quoted me $150Cdn for a Getrag from a Turbo Sunbird (that's including the price for them to yank it!). I'm thinking that the 3-4 synchro is a little wonky in the Cav's transaxle - when it's cold it will grind if I go into either of those gears quickly, sometimes even when I baby it in. Anyone had this happen before? Any ideas what may be causing this, or is it just likely that the synchro is going bye-bye?

And finally, if I get this transaxle, I think the car is an '87 or '88 (most likely an '88 ) which, being a pre-'90 model, has the external clutch release shaft. If I just swap the bellhousing half of the case with the one from the '90 Cav, can I get away with that to convert it to the internal type of clutch release?

[RacerX11]

Yes. With a case-half swap, the sunbird turbo getrag will work.

I just got to thinking...you are putting this into a Celebrity, correct? Did you plan to use a hydraulic, or cable-actuated clutch? The Celebrity came with the getrag and cable clutch for a couple years.

Unfortunately, the type of clutch arrangement on the sunbird tranny won't matter, since you will be swapping out the case half with the clutch stuff. If you find an earlier getrag with the external slave pivot for your donor case-half, you can swap out the stubby hydraulic arm for the longer cable-actuated arm. The cable arm, and the cable bracket, from a 4-speed muncie will bolt up and work correctly with the getrag.

If it is a later internal slave pivot case, you need to swap out the pivot shaft for one from the earlier, external slave arm models. The later internal pivot setups simply have a shorter shaft, and a cap covering the hole in the case. By removing the cap, you can install the earlier, longer shaft, and use the cable setup. Be sure to buy new pivot shaft bushings, as you must remove them in the process of swapping the shafts.

If you end up with one of the J-body internal hydraulic slaves, you are SOL, and must go hydraulic with the clutch.

Marty

[SCREECH]

I just got to thinking...you are putting this into a Celebrity, correct? Did you plan to use a hydraulic, or cable-actuated clutch? The Celebrity came with the getrag and cable clutch for a couple years.
If you end up with one of the J-body internal hydraulic slaves, you are SOL, and must go hydraulic with the clutch.

I was honestly not aware that the Getrag ever had a cable-operated clutch. When I was first planning this whole thing, that's the way I would have preferred to go, had I known such a setup existed. However, I have never seen, nor heard of it. I have already purchased a new clutch master cylinder for the Celebrity (found an aftermarket source for it) and will put it onto the existing line. I have also found an aftermarket source for the resevoir as the J-body's master has the resevoir integrated, while the A-body's master requires a remote resevoir on the driver's strut tower.

I don't mind going hydraulic. I liked the feel of the Cav's clutch when I drove the car home (it was a 3 hour drive and I still wasn't sick of it!) and I hear they're easier to adjust free play? Regardless, I'm already commited to hydraulic. Any advantage to cable that I should know about for future endeavors?

[RacerX11]

Just simplicity. All of the parts (pedal assembly, cable, release shaft arm) are stock, bolt-in parts available in the junkyard. It will be tricky mounting the hydraulic master cylinder into the A-body chassis. The clutch pedals that are available in the junkyard are setup with a pull-type mechanism for the cable. I am not familiar with the J-body pedal/MC setup, but I know when I looked at going hydraulic on my X-11, it was going to be tough to mount all the hardware.

Marty

[SCREECH]

It will be tricky mounting the hydraulic master cylinder into the A-body chassis. I am not familiar with the J-body pedal/MC setup, but I know when I looked at going hydraulic on my X-11, it was going to be tough to mount all the hardware.

Believe it or not, there's WAY more room on the J-bodies than the A-bodies as far as space between the driver's strut tower and the brake booster/mc. It's odd, because the A-body is a bigger overall car. Anyway, you can check the following links for the pics from my '90 Cav and my '90 Eurosport:

1990 Cavalier RS 3.1L 5-speed clutch master cylinder:

http://www.screech.ws/90cav_hydms1.jpg

1990 Celebrity Eurosport space for clutch master cylinder:

http://www.screech.ws/90celeb_hydms_spot1.jpg

Notice, as I've mentioned, that the Cavalier has it's resevoir as part of the master. I've got to get a remote resevoir for the Celebrity. I thought I had already figured out where I could get it from, but I don't recall at the moment. I'll be posting part numbers and manufacturers for all parts that I've purchased to make this happen.

[RidgeRunner]

I believe that my '93 has a separate resevoir, connected to the master by way of a flexible hose.

[Cliff8928]

My beretta has the remote master cylinder aswell..

One other thing with this trans swap is to make sure that the new trans has a copmatable VSS in it (been there, done that, thanks ben)

Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740

[SCREECH]

One other thing with this trans swap is to make sure that the new trans has a copmatable VSS in it

Ok, the '90 Cav's got BOTH the electronic VSS plug on the trans, as well as a cable drive hookup. The '90 Cav sent the electronic VSS signal to the ECU, while the cable drove the speedo. I know in newer Cavs and other cars, the VSS signal also drives the speedo. In my '90 Celebrity Eurosport wagon, the speedo is electric, so I'll just cap the cable drive attachment.

Do I need to give any more attention to the VSS other than to ensure that it's electronic? I can use either the computer that was in my '90 Celebrity (3.1L, 4T60 non-E version) or I can use the one from the '90 Cavalier RS (3.1, 5TM40). Engines are identical, and with the non-E trans, I would expect that, other than "is the transaxle in PN or R(D)D21?", the ECU would not get involved with the 4T60's functions, correct me if I'm wrong.

For anyone who cares, I know for sure that the '87 Getrags in J bodies ONLY had the cable drive, no electronic VSS connector (I've seen them in boneyards like this). I don't know for sure if it's '88 or '89 that started with the electronic AND cable hookups (but '89 has it for sure), nor do I know when the cable drives were dropped completely. If anyone has detailed info on this, that'd be grand.

[Cliff8928]

but you'll have to verify that your celebrity currently has a gear-driven VSS or a hall-effect style VSS... it makes a difference.. (a BIG one) And the only two ways to fix it are to replace the plastic gear with the reluctor wheel (or the other way around if need be) or use a reprogrammed computer chip for the correct VSS..

Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740

[SCREECH]

but you'll have to verify that your celebrity currently has a gear-driven VSS or a hall-effect style VSS

Yeah, I know that much - the Celebrity used the Hall Effect sending unit - no cable whatsoever - and an electronic speedometer. However, what I was asking was - are there different electronic VSS units? Can the VSS unit be calibrated for different speedometers such that it may not read correctly (or even close) with the electronic VSS in the Cavalier's Getrag operating the speedo in the Celebrity? Or can I just slap the Getrag into the Celebrity, hook the VSS plug up to the Getrag and I'm good to go?