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Update: 99 Silhouette engine swap to LX9/3500

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  • Update: 99 Silhouette engine swap to LX9/3500

    I posted questions regarding the best engine swap for my 99 Silhouette (Leaky manifold and antifreeze in engine on a 96K car) about a month ago. Since then, I’ve been lurking on the forum reading everything I can about v6 engine swaps. I decided go with a 2005 LX9 3.5L Uplander engine to replace the LA1 3.4 engine. (I want to recognize SuperDave and Danial Schelhorn for their help and recommendations while I got up to speed on the swap)

    Below is the status of my project. (Complete sub-frame was dropped out of the car a couple of weeks ago)

    1. Purchased a 2005 Uplander engine with less than 3000 miles on it. (This version engine has a power steering pump on it)
    2. Purchased a slightly beefed up rebuilt 4T65E transmission with a heavy-duty torque converter.
    3. Purchased many new suspension parts: KYB G2 struts, lower control arms, rod ends, LH and RH axle/drive shafts, bearing hub assemblies with sst ABS brake sensors, new motor and trans mounts.
    4. I will be running Accel 24lb Multec 1 injectors (P/N 150124) on the 3.4L/LA1 fuel rails.
    5. I plan on swapping sensors and electronics from the 3.4L engine and use the original engine harness.
    6. I purchased the WOT-Tech TB adapter plate and will run an Intrigue 65mm Throttle body to start, and may upgrade to a WOT-Tech/TCE TB later on.
    7. For now, I’ll have to use the 3.4L damper and crank sensor, because WOT listed the adapters kit as being out of stock. (Will the under-drive be an issue on a LX9?)
    8. I’ll have to deal with the A/C mounting issue and the engine block to Trans mounting issue when I start putting it all together.

    There have been recommendations to put in a mild cam (MPG/torque cam) with springs/seats/retainers & .020 longer push rods. This doesn’t seem to be worth it because I can’t find a set of headers that will work in a 99 Silhouette. S&S Alero headers seemed like the way to go, but S&S is out of business. (Bad timing on my project I suppose) I don’t want to spend the next several weeks purchasing flanges, collectors and tubing in order to fab my own set. (I’ve read everything I can find regarding headers on the forum and it seems that this is an area that needs its own forum topic, or at least a sticky. – It would be nice to have all of the head types listed with bolt patterns and port spacing, head angles and/or a comparison to the 3.3 and 3.8L 90 degree V6 heads. Perhaps I could mod a more common set of 3800 FWD engine headers to make them work on a 3500 engine.
    If I went down the “cam and header” path, then I’d need to do extensive tuning. I am not sure that all this extra stuff is worth it for a van. (Despite coolness factor and a little more acceleration.)

    I’ve been keeping a pretty good record of the project and will publish a summary with, pics, part numbers, costs and problems encountered once I get the car running again.

    Happy New-Year 2010 is just about here!

  • #2
    The stock 3500 individual manifolds should flow very well if they will fit, given their port sizes. Headers may not show much more of an advantage until high rpm as the stock individual manifolds are contoured nicely into a merge.

    I would at least look into increasing the compression ratio with the new head gaskets available and a mild upgrade in the camshaft shouldn't require extensive reprogramming.

    Comment


    • #3
      You want to use the 3400 dampener, not sure why GM went with the underdrive larger one... engine wont' start until you get the external crank trigger on there BTW.
      sigpic New 2010 project (click image)
      1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles
      16.0 1/4 mile when stock. Now ???
      Original L82 Longblock
      with LA1, LX9, LX5 parts
      Manifold-back 2.5" SS Mandrel Exhaust. Hardware is SS too.

      Comment


      • #4
        My LX9/3500 engine swap into a LA1/3400, 1999 Olds Silhouette is 100% complete.
        The van runs great! I'm still in "test drive" mode where I am only driving it on short errands. I have to get it to a service station to get my Texas inspection done and have front wheel alignment done.

        I'm currently purchasing parts to upgrade the front brakes to 12" rotors and looking into replacing the rear drum brakes with Discs. I'll do this upgrade along with 16" wheels once my current tires are more worn out.

        I want to post details of the swap here on the forum. What do you guys think is the best format and most meaningful way to write it up so that the next fellow swapper can read enough details in one post so one doesn't have to spend hours reading all of the details spread out in all of the forum posts.

        Comment


        • #5
          Do a writeup in word or something similar, and I will convert it to either HTML or a PDF and post it over on 3x00swap.com.
          -Brad-
          89 Mustang : Future 60V6 Power
          sigpic
          Follow the build -> http://www.3x00swap.com/index.php?page=mustang-blog

          Comment


          • #6
            Will do.

            Thanks.

            Comment


            • #7
              Tijoe,

              Did you end up using the wot-tech external crank trigger, or the dampener and sensors off the LA1?

              Comment


              • #8
                Would need BOTH.
                The one behind the Dampener would be the 24X sensor, the Crank Trigger works as the 7X sensor.(The one normally in the block)
                The Sensor in the Block of the 3500 incorporates both, 54X sensor and is not used when swapping to a 3400 setup.
                As of April 2
                3rd Gen Cavy has 3500 Installed!
                ----------------------------
                Engine: 2006 SV6 3500 LX9
                Trans: 2002 Getrag F23 5speed
                Pcm: 2001 Impala La1 3400 with complete Engine Harness.
                Injectors: #36 GTPs
                TB: 65mm TCE
                Maf: 1999 3400 Montana.
                Adjustable TCE Fuel pressure Regulator
                Walbro W1 255 pump from Racetronix.
                Beverages: Ice Cold CANADIAN.

                Comment


                • #9
                  great to see someone else do this! i replaced my LA1 with an Lx9 last April and put 18k miles on it so far with no problems!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I thought that I would give an update regarding how my van is running.

                    I have over 2000 miles on the swap. Overall the engine has been running great.

                    Here are the issues to date.

                    - The car started running funny one day. Turns out that a molded rubber fitting coming out of the top of the PVC valve split and was sucking air. I used the old 3400 PVC line parts. I believe that the 3500 upper intake manifold sits higher relative to the valve cover, so that the elbow had an angular force on it that cause the part to split.
                    - The car sometimes stops running while decelerating when the engine is in an idle state and/or while you are gently breaking. I haven't figured this one out yet. It is probably another vacuum issue. (Could it be an ECM tune issue?)
                    - Yesterday, The car started smelling like burnt rubber and anti-freeze. Turns out one of the heater water lines was rubbing against the EGR bellows. It melted through the water line over time.

                    Joe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I replaced the PCV rubber elbow once as mine broke taking it off. Put on the HELP! section replacement, and that rubber was not oil resistant, as a few days later I heard a horrible screeching noise coming under the hood that went away when you opened the throttle... Turns out the rubber had turned to mush and a big crack formed in it and it was collapsed whistling like mad under vacuum... LOL. I got some braided angled heater coolant hose and trimmed it to fit and installed that and it's held up to this day.

                      The engine dying could be due to the tune being off, the VE out of whack.. Did you use the LA1 injectors or the LX9 ones?

                      Also make sure the IAC valve is not sticking, I've had that kill my engine before. Also when one of the EGR valve solenoid stuck open it would kill the engine and make it hard to start when slowing down...
                      sigpic New 2010 project (click image)
                      1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles
                      16.0 1/4 mile when stock. Now ???
                      Original L82 Longblock
                      with LA1, LX9, LX5 parts
                      Manifold-back 2.5" SS Mandrel Exhaust. Hardware is SS too.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks for the feedback.

                        My failed PVC elbow whistled as well, sounded like a squeaky fan belt.

                        I used 24# Accel injectors in the 3400 fuel rail.

                        The engine will sit and idle fine, accelerates fine and runs well at steady speeds.
                        It seems to happen only when I am slowing down with no load on the engine, and when I gently hit the breaks. Often I see the tach drop below 500 rpm when I first hit the brakes, (vacuum pull down I presume,) and then bounce back to under 1000 rpm.

                        I am using an Olds 58mm TB with the 3.4 IAC and TPS.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          very cool to see another Uvan engine swap! Back in 2007, with 140K on the 3400 in my 2000 Montana and the intake gaskets leaking for the second time, I faced the same dilemma as you. Since I specialized in 3800 performance (Engineered Performance, Atlanta) and I had a 96K-mile L36 from a Monte Carlo, I went that route instead. I know 60-6 is not the place to talk about it (LOL!), except I want to say this: I WISH I HAD NEVER DONE IT!!!! My gas mileage went from 21mpg avg down to 17mpg, the darn thing knocks and pings on anything less than 91 octane, the power is good, but in hindsite, I should have stayed with the 3400. Now the van has 220K on it, that's 180K on the 3800. I will say one thing for the 3800, they will run forever.

                          But now I am looking for a 3900 with DOD. Sorry to jump in, but I got excited seeing someone else doing a Uvan engine swap!
                          Jeff Ianitello
                          Engineered Performance
                          Atlanta, GA.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tijoe View Post
                            I thought that I would give an update regarding how my van is running.

                            I have over 2000 miles on the swap. Overall the engine has been running great.

                            Here are the issues to date.

                            - The car started running funny one day. Turns out that a molded rubber fitting coming out of the top of the PVC valve split and was sucking air. I used the old 3400 PVC line parts. I believe that the 3500 upper intake manifold sits higher relative to the valve cover, so that the elbow had an angular force on it that cause the part to split.
                            - The car sometimes stops running while decelerating when the engine is in an idle state and/or while you are gently breaking. I haven't figured this one out yet. It is probably another vacuum issue. (Could it be an ECM tune issue?)
                            - Yesterday, The car started smelling like burnt rubber and anti-freeze. Turns out one of the heater water lines was rubbing against the EGR bellows. It melted through the water line over time.

                            Joe

                            I know this is an old thread but I wanted to give some insight to your issue of dying upon deceleration. I thought other people may have the same issue down the road...I did the same exact swap (05 Uplander 3500 into 99 Silhouette) and had the exact same issue for months of driving. It died often in the city but ran flawless on the highway (and got 23-25 mpg!) so I just drove it like that for a long time. The check engine light never came on either- it was weird! When it died, I'd pop it in neutral and restart. It always restarted. My problem turned out to be the EGR. When I installed the engine, I had left the 3500 EGR on the UIM and just plugged the Silhouette harness plug into the 3500 EGR. It fit fine but the retaining tab was backwards from what the factory Uplander harness would have been. After unplugging the EGR and driving for ~1month now it hasn't died at all and it runs better/more power/etc. Problem is the check engine light is on (code for the EGR) and that drives me nuts! So I'm trying to figure out a solution...

                            Upon further research, I've noted that the wiring and EGR action via PCM between the Silhouette and Uplander are pretty different- only a couple wires are the same! But they both have a similar 5 wire plug. I haven't figured out a fix yet (that's why I'm on here looking!) but here are the wiring for both vans:

                            99 Silhouette:
                            EGR Valve Control- Gray
                            EGR Valve 12v Feed- Red
                            EGR Position Signal- Brown
                            Sensor Ground- black
                            5 volt Reference- Gray

                            05 Uplander:
                            5v Reference- gray
                            Low Reference- Tan
                            EGR Position Signal- Brown
                            EGR Solenoid Low Control- Gray
                            EGR Solenoid High COntrol- Orange
                            Last edited by Lumina3.5; 12-29-2012, 03:58 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              might just be wording that's differet... I see this...

                              99 Silhouette:
                              EGR Valve Control- Gray = EGR Solenoid Low Control- Gray
                              EGR Valve 12v Feed- Red = EGR Solenoid High Control- Orange
                              EGR Position Signal- Brown = EGR Position Signal- Brown
                              Sensor Ground- black = Low Reference- Tan
                              5 volt Reference- Gray = 5v Reference- gray

                              I'd check to make sure the pins are the same for the two because I have a 04 05 style EGR on my 96 Beretta plugged right in, and when I had it enabled I never had a problem. I currently have it disabled but it never made my car stall on decel.

                              Got Lope?
                              3500 Build, Comp XFI Cam 218/230 .050 dur .570/.568 lift 113LSA
                              Fully Balanced, Ported, 3 Angle Valve Job, 65mm TCE TB, S&S Headers.
                              Stage-1 Raybestos/Alto 4t60e-HD, EP LSD, 3.69FDR
                              12.61@105 Epping NH Oct 2015 Nitrous 100shot (melted plugs) 13.58@98.8 N/A 3200LBS

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