Engine Hunt Help

[sailorman]

Don't know much BUT...I'm looking for a V6 built on alum block with alum heads that is electronic fuel injection and turbo capable for my homebuilt airplane (still building). I want it to develop over 250 HP. Can anyone tell me if there is a GM product I should be looking at or do I need to got to V8?

Allen

[Joseph Upson]

You may still be able to purchase the old 2.8L aluminum block for a build up using the front wheel drive engine rotating assembly and aluminum heads.

Otherwise the new 3.6L DOHC which is now producing 306hp and about 278 lb/ft of torque for the 08 cadillac CTS is the only other option I'm aware of. Problem is whether or not you can simplify the management of the engine from what it is in a vehicle to make it uncomplicatedly safe for an airplane.


If you are willing to consider an all aluminum V8 then you should also be willing to consider the iron block V6 since there will not be a significant difference in weight between them, and turbocharging it to a mild extent would produce well over 300 hp.

I plan on owning my own plane one day after I finish school and have a real job. I worked on helicopters in the Army and have always been fond of flying.

I'm curious as to why you are interested in adapting an automobile engine as opposed to using one of the many engines available for homebuilts.

[ForcedFirebird]

Availability of parts. I recently talked to a guy that picked up an LS1 that was used in a plane. It's a lot like the airboat guys here. Flat 4/6's work really well in an airboat (if you can't afford a radial engine). I have seen a 454 in an airboat, but it was unstable when stopped, even though it was much larger than most.

[sailorman]

Engine Hunt

Joseph said

"I'm curious as to why you are interested in adapting an automobile engine as opposed to using one of the many engines available for homebuilts."

Joe, to buy a dead beat to hell air cooled lycoming is $10K PLUS. Then you have to rebuild it. Most homebuilders are going to auto convesion. I've been looking at the Mazda Rotary and Subaru 3.3L out of a CVX. I'm hoping there is a GM that is built using alum block and heads in the V6 so I can be comfortable on finding parts. The larger the engine, weight and physical size, creates balance problems in the aircraft one has to build around. I'm building a BD4C (designed by JIM Bede), but it will be a little different from the plans. I will have 30 foot wingspan and 24 foot length. Will cruise in the neighborhood of 225MPH with a 300 HP engine. Seats 4 people.

Allen
Houston, TX

[Joseph Upson]

At least we are thinking along the same plan because the flat engines found in the Subaru also came to mind as well as the ultimate Porche flat six but again parts and ease of modification were considered. I didn't know how big a plane you were planning on and assumed it was mainly for speed in a small plane. It's been many years since I looked at prices for a V6 for flight.

The problem although not difficult to solve with the 3.6L is the variable valve timing design which you wouldn't need for an airplane. Fixing the cam positions in permanent optimal degree angles relative to the cam sprockets would solve the problem with minimal costs or you can invest in the aftermarket stand-alone engine management system particularly for this motor that I understand costs about $2000 and includes the harness.

There are other units orginally created for the import VVT motors that cost less and could probably be used on the american made motor.


There is a picture of the engine in the photo gallery.
It's a very promising and impressive engine considering how close it's power output is to the all aluminum 5.3L V8 engine. You certainly wouldn't need a turbo for it, and it's high rpm limit and oil squirters for the pistons make it quite practical for an airplane, all you have to do is add a dry sump oil system
so you can fly upside down.

[ForcedFirebird]

Gm offers an aluminum 60* block, but it isn't cheap. I would have to hunt again, but I saw one on e-bay a few weeks ago (unused).

The iron shortblock weighs around 180lbs.

[ForcedFirebird]

you can invest in the aftermarket stand-alone engine management system particularly for this motor that I understand costs about $2000 and includes the harness.

MegaSqurt couldn't be adapted for something like that? They can control multiple electronic functions chosen by the user.

[Joseph Upson]

Gm offers an aluminum 60* block, but it isn't cheap. I would have to hunt again, but I saw one on e-bay a few weeks ago (unused).

The iron shortblock weighs around 180lbs.

More like 220 if I recall correctly when I weighed the 3500 short block.


He needs to check the photo gallery so that he can see a picture of the engine.

http://www.60degreev6.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=20

[Joseph Upson]

MegaSqurt couldn't be adapted for something like that? They can control multiple electronic functions chosen by the user.

Not sure I would want something like megasquirt in charge of my engine at 10,000 feet. The system I mentioned uses the OE GM PCM. As for the VVT there is no need for it in an airplane which is running at linear speed the vast majority of flight so it would be more of a liability than a benefit.

I heard a V6 in a small passenger plane at the airport idling once and you could tell it had a hot cam in it for high rpm because it had a nice lope and skip at idle, sounded nice.

[ForcedFirebird]

More like 220 if I recall correctly when I weighed the 3500 short block.


He needs to check the photo gallery so that he can see a picture of the engine.

http://www.60degreev6.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=20

It's hard to believe the 3500 weighs that much more than a 3.1! (actaully not, Ben said the crank was much heavier in the 3500) Was that including water pump, timing cover etc? The one I know was weighed only the block and rotating assy.

MegaSquirt is that unreliable, or you mean just being sure of a "plug and play" scenario?

[sailorman]

Well I looked in the pic section at 3.6L DOHC: http://www.60degreev6.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=20

I'm assuming that's the engine you are talking about. What does the sepentine belt drive? It doesn't run the cams or valves does it? Hopefully just the AC, alt, pumps etc. (YES, I do know how to change oil and plugs. I even rebuilt a top end one time of a 1976 Dodge pickup V8.) So anyway, is this the engine I'm supposed to look at? I'm wondering what output (HP) is, weight dry, stuff like that. The engine will be installed with the drive output couple to a PSRU (PropSpeedReductionUnit) and I'll probably install after market water pump and altenator. Use the ECU that is stock and see what aftermarket fits best. You do want as much data from the engine you can get coming into the cockpit. The higher your altitude the atmospheric pressure changes affect a lot of things.

Allen
Houston

[Joseph Upson]

It's hard to believe the 3500 weighs that much more than a 3.1! (actaully not, Ben said the crank was much heavier in the 3500) Was that including water pump, timing cover etc? The one I know was weighed only the block and rotating assy.

MegaSquirt is that unreliable, or you mean just being sure of a "plug and play" scenario?

The steel crank is about 15 lbs heavier and you have to keep in mind in order to keep the same strength in a larger displacement engine where the cylinder bore is increased you have to add more metal so going from a 3.5 bore to a 3.7 bore plus the extra ribbing in the lifter valley and larger diameter pistons it adds up. There was no timing cover on the engine and it may or may not have had the auto flywheel on it. I do recall about 220 lbs though.

As for MegaSquirt I can't imagine it being close to the dependability of the OE equipment due to the very probable rigorous testing involved. You just can't afford to have a stall while flying, so I would prefer to take the road better traveled.

Well I looked in the pic section at 3.6L DOHC: http://www.60degreev6.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=20

I'm assuming that's the engine you are talking about. What does the sepentine belt drive? It doesn't run the cams or valves does it? Hopefully just the AC, alt, pumps etc. (YES, I do know how to change oil and plugs. I even rebuilt a top end one time of a 1976 Dodge pickup V8.) So anyway, is this the engine I'm supposed to look at? I'm wondering what output (HP) is, weight dry, stuff like that. The engine will be installed with the drive output couple to a PSRU (PropSpeedReductionUnit) and I'll probably install after market water pump and altenator. Use the ECU that is stock and see what aftermarket fits best. You do want as much data from the engine you can get coming into the cockpit. The higher your altitude the atmospheric pressure changes affect a lot of things.

Allen
Houston

Serpentine is for the accessories, the cams should be chain driven, you're building a plane so I never doubted you could change oil and plugs, however if you couldn't that would be the least of your worries.

That is the engine 3.6L DOHC, it is very powerful currently rated at 275hp and 258lb/ft in a couple of the sport utilities one of which is the Saturn. In 2008 the Cadillac gets a 306 hp version. With an aluminum block I would guess the stripped weight (no accessories) to be around 350 lbs but that maybe on the high side, just keeping in mind 4 camshafts and dual valves.

http://www.mechtech-ms.com/ctsv6.php

[bszopi]

Here is the original press kit on the 3.6L engine.

http://media.gm.com/division/powertrain/press_kits/global_v6/global_index.htm

[PCGUY112887]

I can see it now...

Oh shit, my LIM gasket blew at 10 thousand feet!