MS2 Setup Help

[Maverick H1L]

Fix known problems first, then move onto unknowns.

In other words fix the exhaust leaks, THEN re-asses.

Thing is that I've already cleaned my fuel filter 3 times this year (cleanable filter, 60 micron, AN fittings). I've always been fighting with the headers... They'd seal for a while and then the sealant (which is supposed to be good to 1200* or something) would break loose and they would leak again. AFRs have never bounced like this. I'm thinking possibly a couple of filter baskets in the injectors are partially or fully clogged. I also bought these injectors used so IDK what kind of condition they were in (tested at 16+ ohms electrically, full set of 8 ) when I bought them other than the engine runs...

[Guest]

There's no reason that gaskets should ever blow out, when the mating surfaces are flat. You need to solve that before moving on. Just because you haven't seen the AFRs move around this this previously, doesn't mean that it's not at least a little related.

Without repairing the known issues it's impossible to properly diagnose any issue.

[Maverick H1L]

There's no reason that gaskets should ever blow out, when the mating surfaces are flat. You need to solve that before moving on. Just because you haven't seen the AFRs move around this this previously, doesn't mean that it's not at least a little related.

Without repairing the known issues it's impossible to properly diagnose any issue.

Dude, I'm telling you it's NOT the exhaust. I've been fighting these exhaust leaks one way or another since I first fired this engine in June 2013 (would have been March but TCE didn't cut the timing notches right in their external CKP kit). Not once have the AFRs gone nuts like this. And it's doing the same at higher engine speeds when the exhaust leaks are completely irrelevant (as according to other websites and even Innovate themselves). IDK what it is with this EMS but it's driving me nuts. The IAC works but it doesn't; the MS, no matter how many times I go through and reset the WBO2S calibration, refuses to read the same as the gauge; now I have a ton of sensor noise and the only thing I have done in the last week is to rebuild my alternator and put a new DB9 serial port on the MS board; Autotune won't work because every single time I turn it on all it ever says is "O2S out of range" even though it knows (about) what the AFRs ARE and WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE...

I think I'm going to cough up the money for new injectors... Need the retainer clips anyways (can you believe those blasted things are $30 for a set of 8 measly little stamped metal clips?!). And I'm going to have to find a place to help with the exhaust (not only do the headers themselves have the port issues but the intermediate pipe is misaligned and hitting the front seatbelt receiver bolt, not aligned and fully seated properly in the rear insulator, and I need to have a custom tail pipe bent).

[Guest]

I don't know why you want to believe that exhaust leaks don't effect O2 readings, but if that's what you want to believe then roll with it. My experience and all data I have seen, read and been privy to, says otherwise.

You also don't seem to understand the correlation between fixing known problems before trying to find others. Even if a problem somehow doesn't appear related on the surface it can, and has for may people been, the root of the problem, or very much related.

Again back to your exhaust leaks, just because they didn't seem to effect the readings previously doesn't mean that they aren't now.

But it's your car and your time, use it how you see fit.

Also I've never used injector clips in any of my swaps. The fact the fuel rail holds the injectors in with the force created by bolting it down is more than enough to hold the injectors just fine.

[robertisaar]

the injectors would push against the rail with a force of what, 43.5PSI in a ~1/2" diameter hole(times 6)? seems like the fuel rails would need to be pretty bendy for that to become a problem.

[Maverick H1L]

I don't know why you want to believe that exhaust leaks don't effect O2 readings, but if that's what you want to believe then roll with it. My experience and all data I have seen, read and been privy to, says otherwise.

You also don't seem to understand the correlation between fixing known problems before trying to find others. Even if a problem somehow doesn't appear related on the surface it can, and has for may people been, the root of the problem, or very much related.

Again back to your exhaust leaks, just because they didn't seem to effect the readings previously doesn't mean that they aren't now.

But it's your car and your time, use it how you see fit.

Also I've never used injector clips in any of my swaps. The fact the fuel rail holds the injectors in with the force created by bolting it down is more than enough to hold the injectors just fine.

EXHAUST LEAKS DON'T CAUSE MISFIRES. Especially without O2S correction for injection pulses. Hence my jumping AFRs aren't as related to the exhaust leaks as they are improper fuel injection. And, as I said above, Innovate themselves (LC-2 here) say that exhaust leaks are irrelevant to read AFRs at higher engine speeds.

Will be replacing fuel injectors shortly. Within the next couple weeks.

Spent the weekend fighting a no-crank. Well, it does crank. But it's taking so bleeping long to actually fire it's not funny, and I seem to have developed a nasty kickback so bad it's killed a ONE WEEK OLD STARTER DRIVE. I haven't touched anything since last weekend in the tune (adjusted cranking PW AGAIN. It WAS perfect) and it started going nuts Thursday. I've swapped out the ignition module to rule out any possible wrong coil firing (it's almost acting like someone messed with the firing order of a dizzy cap except it seems to be random) and that's not the problem. I can crank the engine over as long as I want until fuel starts getting injected (as in MSII disconnected) but once fuel enters the mix, forget it. I've adjusted the IAC start opening, injector crank PW, upper edges of the VE and spark tables, and completely reset (erased the processor, reinstalled the V2.92 code, and reinstalled the tune) the MSII, and it's still being a PITA. It's so bad it's pulled 3 of my rethread inserts for the starter (had to rethread them last year) right out of the engine block (by stretching them, they still thread into the holes). I've put new threaded inserts into the block, after making sure the holes were clean (between the tap from the kit and brake cleaner), with Loctite Sleeve Installer, replaced the bolts (of course I can't find the 102mm bolts any more so I had to get 113mm bolts and use washers!), and I will have another starter drive Tuesday.

[Xnke]

Hate to break it to you dude, but yeah, your exhaust leaks will cause you AFR issues BIG TIME. I do MS installs on a regular basis in a LOT of different vehicles, and if you have an exhaust leak you MUST fix it before you start tuning or you will have no end of issues. Innovate says it doesn't matter, but it DOES MATTER. That said, it is not likely the root cause of your misfire issue.

If you have starter kickback, you have ignition timing issues. If you are using GM ignition components, chuck them. They're not reliable with a MS install...too many variables. GET RID OF THEM. MS does NOT need any of the GM ignition modules to run the engine. It was not designed to, and the more things you try to make it work with that it was not designed to work with, the more problems you will have to work around. I know, I know, heard it a million times-"BUT THE MANUAL SAYS IT WILL!" Or "I saw some other guy on the internet do it and it worked fine!". Relay boards, garbage. HEI modules? Garbage. DIS modules? Iffy-some work, some go nuts. You have a crank trigger, and a good one at that. Program the MS in generic wheel mode, set up for the 7x trigger, and then gut the DIS module and let MS drive the coils directly. That will give YOU control of the ignition timing, not the DIS module. Yes, you will have to fit three ignition coil drivers somewhere and do a little wiring inside the MS box. But when you've done that, there is absolutely NO way that you can get an intermittant coil problem, short of a bad coil. There are no "translators" or ignition modules or little black boxes that can interrupt the data you get to see on the laptop.

The coils firing out of order issue sounds to me like either you have a goofy DIS module, or you have a rising edge trigger set as a falling edge, or vice-versa. It will run correctly sometimes that way, and very wrong sometimes that way. It depends on the initial state of things.

What's more, it sounds like (from reading your past problems) you have a noise issue. Electrical noise and MS are not friends, and electrical noise you dismiss as unimportant or not bad enough to cause problems will actually corrupt the MS processor's program, slowly working against you until you have a complete program crash and the engine won't run at all.

PM me with setup details and I'll be glad to help you fix the problem, but more than likely you've installed it wrong. It's a HUGE problem with MS installs, if the wiring harness isn't assembled correctly, then it's not correct and it will cause dozens of unrelated, inconsistant, maddeningly frustrating problems. And NOBODY wants to hear that they've done it wrong. They'd rather blame the box, than blame themselves. Assembled correctly does not just mean "this end of the wire goes to that point". HOW you get the wire there matters-a lot.

This is a case of start back at step one, which is pencil on paper of "what do I need to control?", NOT "Well I better open up the laptop again...".

It can be fixed and it can run properly. Just gotta start with step one, and NOT proceed to step two until step one is tested and proven.

[Maverick H1L]

Hate to break it to you dude, but yeah, your exhaust leaks will cause you AFR issues BIG TIME. I do MS installs on a regular basis in a LOT of different vehicles, and if you have an exhaust leak you MUST fix it before you start tuning or you will have no end of issues. Innovate says it doesn't matter, but it DOES MATTER. That said, it is not likely the root cause of your misfire issue.

If you have starter kickback, you have ignition timing issues. If you are using GM ignition components, chuck them. They're not reliable with a MS install...too many variables. GET RID OF THEM. MS does NOT need any of the GM ignition modules to run the engine. It was not designed to, and the more things you try to make it work with that it was not designed to work with, the more problems you will have to work around. I know, I know, heard it a million times-"BUT THE MANUAL SAYS IT WILL!" Or "I saw some other guy on the internet do it and it worked fine!". Relay boards, garbage. HEI modules? Garbage. DIS modules? Iffy-some work, some go nuts. You have a crank trigger, and a good one at that. Program the MS in generic wheel mode, set up for the 7x trigger, and then gut the DIS module and let MS drive the coils directly. That will give YOU control of the ignition timing, not the DIS module. Yes, you will have to fit three ignition coil drivers somewhere and do a little wiring inside the MS box. But when you've done that, there is absolutely NO way that you can get an intermittant coil problem, short of a bad coil. There are no "translators" or ignition modules or little black boxes that can interrupt the data you get to see on the laptop.

The coils firing out of order issue sounds to me like either you have a goofy DIS module, or you have a rising edge trigger set as a falling edge, or vice-versa. It will run correctly sometimes that way, and very wrong sometimes that way. It depends on the initial state of things.

What's more, it sounds like (from reading your past problems) you have a noise issue. Electrical noise and MS are not friends, and electrical noise you dismiss as unimportant or not bad enough to cause problems will actually corrupt the MS processor's program, slowly working against you until you have a complete program crash and the engine won't run at all.

PM me with setup details and I'll be glad to help you fix the problem, but more than likely you've installed it wrong. It's a HUGE problem with MS installs, if the wiring harness isn't assembled correctly, then it's not correct and it will cause dozens of unrelated, inconsistant, maddeningly frustrating problems. And NOBODY wants to hear that they've done it wrong. They'd rather blame the box, than blame themselves. Assembled correctly does not just mean "this end of the wire goes to that point". HOW you get the wire there matters-a lot.

This is a case of start back at step one, which is pencil on paper of "what do I need to control?", NOT "Well I better open up the laptop again...".

It can be fixed and it can run properly. Just gotta start with step one, and NOT proceed to step two until step one is tested and proven.

I'm going to start by saying I skipped 95% of your garbage. I don't have time to read the rantings of someone who obviously has no idea what I'm dealing with.

If none of my parts worked with the MS2 then the engine wouldn't run PERIOD. I'm not about to turn my ignition system that works fine (now that I've fixed the loose bracket holding my CKP in place) into a total clustermuck because some joker comes out of nowhere and decides to tell me I should. The last time the engine ran was in April. Once I found that my entire alternator bracket assembly was loose, removed it, helicoiled the cylinder head and retightened the attaching bolts (including the lower bolt which is also holding the CKP in place), VOILA! NO KICKBACK! Also replaced the starter drive for good measure.

Read as: I'M NOT GOING TO SCREW AROUND MODIFYING MY ENTIRE DIS IGNITION SYSTEM WHEN IT ALREADY WORKS FINE IF THE CKP POSITION ISN'T MESSED WITH ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

My problem is no longer the engine doesn't run (well it doesn't right now but that's because I need to replace my fuel hoses because the idiot I bought the hose from kinked the ever loving crap out of it when he sent it to me so my return hose sprang a leak right in the middle of it and I've decided I had enough of the cheap Chinese AN fittings and been short on cash to get new hoses made). It's that it doesn't run the way it's supposed to.

Read as: PROBLEM IS WITH THE TUNE ITSELF AND NOT THE HARDWARE OUTSIDE OF THE MS2 CASE. MY ENGINE ISN'T RUNNING RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THERE IS NO FUEL SUPPLY DUE TO FUEL LEAKS.

Here are the issues, genius:

THE IAC DOESN'T WORK PROPERLY. IT CAN BE MANUALLY CONTROLLED USING THE MS AND TUNERSTUDIO (I OUGHT TO KNOW AS I'VE WATCHED THE PINTLE MOVE IN A SPARE THROTTLE BODY AS I WAS MANUALLY CONTROLLING IT) BUT WILL NOT CLOSE AS THE ENGINE WARMS UP (IF IT DID, WHY DOES MY ENGINE HOT IDLE FROM COLD START AT 2500 RPM?). BUT WILL CLOSE TO IDLE POSITION WHEN ENGINE IS SHUT DOWN AND RESTARTED WHEN HOT (UNTOUCHED HOT IDLE OF 1200 RPM). AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, IF I SET THE HOT IDLE FROM A COLD START, SHUT THE ENGINE OFF, AND RESTART IT, THE ENGINE WILL CHOKE OUT DUE TO NOT ENOUGH IAC OPENING. WHEN IT SHOULD JUST GO BACK TO THE SAME POSITION THE ENGINE WAS JUST RUNNING IN. THE MS2 DOESN'T CONTROL IT PROPERLY. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY NOT A FAILURE OF THE EXTERNAL HARDWARE BUT A FAILURE OF THE MS2 PROGRAMMING (AND NOT THE IAC WARMUP CURVE). THE INTERNAL PROGRAMMING I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO LOCATE.

Most people I have read from on various forums DON'T EVEN RUN AN IAC so they're not dealing with this BS. Or they run the Ford Fast Idle Valve, which is either open or shut.

THE KNOCK SENSE IS USELESS. I HAVE FACTORY 1987 AND 1992 GENERAL MOTORS F-BODY SERVICE MANUALS. USING THE 1987 SERVICE MANUAL, THE KNOCK SENSE SYSTEM TESTS AS NORMAL ALL THE WAY TO THE MS2 BOX. THIS INDICATES A PROBLEM EITHER ON THE MS2 TO 1227165 ADAPTER BOARD (HIGHLY UNLIKELY) OR ON/IN THE MS2 BOARD ITSELF.

I tend to think GM knows what they're talking about with diagnostics of the ESC system. After all, THEY DESIGNED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I HAVE SENSOR NOISE ALL OVER THE PLACE NOT PRESENT WHEN I WAS USING ALMOST THE EXACT SAME SENSORS WITH A GM ECM. USING THE SAME WIRING HARNESS AS HAS BEEN USED WITH THIS ENGINE SINCE 2004 (the 3.1 was dropped into my 87 in 2004). AGAIN, MS2 HARDWARE FAULT. BEEN KNOWN FOR YEARS YET B&G WON'T PUT OUT A REVISED MS2 SYSTEM BOARD. THERE ARE NUMEROUS BANDAIDS FOR THIS PROBLEM BUT NOTHING REALLY SEEMS TO WORK IF VERY SEVERE.

Speaks for itself.

AND I DON'T WANT TO READ YOUR BANTER ABOUT EXHAUST LEAKS. FIRST, BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE SOME JOE NOBODY KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE INNOVATE SYSTEMS THAN THE ENGINEERS AT INNOVATE DO, AND SECOND, BECAUSE I HAD THE HEADERS FIXED AND MADE ACTUAL REAL GASKETS FOR THEM (Percy's XX Carbon fiber gasket material purchased from Jegs for $28 for a 20x6" sheet).

Fixed the blasted leaks. Now get off my case.

AND NONE OF YOUR BANTER EXPLAINS WHY THE MS2 KEEPS LOSING ITS MIND EVERY SO OFTEN WITHOUT EXTERNAL INFLUENCE. OR WHY THE MS2 CALIBRATION FOR THE LC-2 KEEPS READING OFF COMPARED TO THE INNOVATE GAUGE THAT IS CONNECTED TO THE LC-2 IN PARALLEL TO THE MS2 (the gauge's power, ground, and signal wires are SPLICED DIRECTLY INTO THE WIRES COMING OUT OF THE LC-2 GOING INTO THE CONNECTION FOR THE MS2 HARNESS). NO MATTER HOW THE CALIBRATION CURVE IS SET, THE MS2 STILL READS AN AVERAGE OF 0.4 LAMBDA ON THE LEAN SIDE COMPARED TO THE GAUGE. NOW DON'T EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE THAT IF BOTH DEVICES ARE GETTING THE SAME SIGNAL FROM THE LC-2 THAT THE MS2 WILL BE MORE ACCURATE AND SENSITIVE TO EXHAUST LEAKS THAN THE GAUGE THAT WAS DESIGNED TO BE PAIRED WITH SAID LC-2.

Clear enough for you?

[Xnke]

Best of luck to you. Guess you've never done a standalone EFI system before.

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