Advice - Piggyback Fuel/spark for Turbo

[Schmieder]

I have the tuning nightmare 96 Grand Prix SE 3100 auto trans.

Is there a simple fuel/spark piggyback controller I can use for my custom turbo project instead of going 12:1 FMU?

Technical is ok, I have a good strong ability to make things work.

Just need advice on the perfect fuel/spark controller. Nothing fancy or special, just a basic fuel/spark tune for turbo.

Thanks!

EDIT: Something that works well with a wideband O2 would be nice since I have the WB already.

Are there any piggyback fuel injector pulse time reducers? If I had a Walbro high pressure pump and larger injectors, I would be injecting more fuel then factory had tuned for. It seems a simple dial in reduction of injector pulse width would do the trick. Advise? Suggestions?

[robertisaar]

you SHOULD be able to swap in a 97 3100 PCM from a 97 GP/MC/CS/Regal/Lumina without much trouble and then it would be tuneable with HPT. your 96 is tuneable with DHP.

if you're interested in swapping in a newer PCM, let me know and i'll get you the wiring diagrams...

[Schmieder]

you SHOULD be able to swap in a 97 3100 PCM from a 97 GP/MC/CS/Regal/Lumina without much trouble and then it would be tuneable with HPT. your 96 is tuneable with DHP.

if you're interested in swapping in a newer PCM, let me know and i'll get you the wiring diagrams...

Finding DHP is going to be hard, so I'm not counting on DHP. Out with the old, in with the new.

Yeah, I think swapping the PCM would be the best choice. Wire diagrams would be fantastic! Plus a little advise on few areas where I may get stumped. As long as it is straight forward, I can do it.

Much better to swap PCM's then buying AFPR, 12:1 FMU and all that jazz.

Now, if I am not going to need an FMU, will stock fuel pump hold up to 5psig boost?

HPT is a bit expensive but worth it in the long run. Might be cheaper to considering all the additional parts I wont need.

Yes please. Wiring diagrams would be real nice. I have a good head on my shoulders (../retain some modesty) so rewiring shouldn't be too hard.

[robertisaar]

this should work for you...

[Joseph Upson]

Finding DHP is going to be hard, so I'm not counting on DHP. Out with the old, in with the new.

Yeah, I think swapping the PCM would be the best choice. Wire diagrams would be fantastic! Plus a little advise on few areas where I may get stumped. As long as it is straight forward, I can do it.

Much better to swap PCM's then buying AFPR, 12:1 FMU and all that jazz.

Now, if I am not going to need an FMU, will stock fuel pump hold up to 5psig boost?

HPT is a bit expensive but worth it in the long run. Might be cheaper to considering all the additional parts I wont need.

Yes please. Wiring diagrams would be real nice. I have a good head on my shoulders (../retain some modesty) so rewiring shouldn't be too hard.

Your stock pump and injectors should be fine for 5 psi, for years turbo and SC kits have been relying on stock equipment for 7 psi. Keep in mind that if you have a vacuum signal at the stock fuel pressure regulator you will see increased fuel pressure under boost to help compensate for the added air. Not sure on your particular engine if that is a feature. If the turbo is blowing through a MAF sensor I believe that would also be more helpful than just a MAP sensor alone since the actual quantity of air flowing into the engine is being measured.

[Schmieder]

this should work for you...

You are the man!

Now, this may seem like a silly question but, are the pin#'s ordered the same way for both 96-97? As in the 96 pin sequence is 1-40 starting bottom left working right.

Beyond that, this is great. With this info I can easily swap the PCM's. And with HP Tuner, man, I'll have great control. Shift points, injector pulse width and I will even have from scratch program ability. My brother is a freakin wize with all types of programing languages.

Do you happen to know what program language the PCM uses? Is it a typical stripped down version of Linux?

[Schmieder]

Your stock pump and injectors should be fine for 5 psi, for years turbo and SC kits have been relying on stock equipment for 7 psi. Keep in mind that if you have a vacuum signal at the stock fuel pressure regulator you will see increased fuel pressure under boost to help compensate for the added air. Not sure on your particular engine if that is a feature. If the turbo is blowing through a MAF sensor I believe that would also be more helpful than just a MAP sensor alone since the actual quantity of air flowing into the engine is being measured.

Yes, I have MAF. It is a 3100 (gen III) w/ 3400 top swap. Thats the only real mod so far. Turbo soon, hahaha, I'm so darn excited to get welding, wiring and then tearing down the highway!!!

Question, my stock injectors are old and the plastic band above the o-ring is warping from age/heat ect. Make it short, they are being replaced.

Is it ok to put in 36# injectors under stock pump? (tuning of course)

Cause I will be upgrading the boost down the road with stronger internals, the works. Having the 36#'ers ahead of that would be nice.

[Schmieder]

this should work for you...

Are all the wire functions similar? I understand the pin# will vary, but are the functions identical in nature of their operation?

Seems like silly questions but I like to cover every angle ahead of time. Sometimes it bids me to ask away, but that is just who I am. I am a perfectionist at heart. I'm not happy until my spark plug wires are linear to each other and strapped down nice and neat.

Then again, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people, lol.

Thanks again Rob, you have been a great help. I'll be sure to post pics and some vids of the final product.

[Schmieder]

this should work for you...

EDIT: Cleared the previous post as it was useless.

I only found 3 issues now and they seem medial.

All that is required for the PCM swap is to switch these few wires.

96 clear pin 33 > 97 clear pin 35
96 clear pin 47 > 97 clear pin 48
96 clear pin 48 > 97 clear pin 47

And thats it!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOO HOOOOO..........YEAH BABY, 96 TUNING ISSUES WILL BE HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are 3 wires/circuits in the 1997 PCM that aren't included in the 1996 PCM

CLEAR

96 PCM - PIN 8 BLANK
97 PCM - PIN 8 Change Oil Soon Indicator Control

96 PCM - PIN 9 BLANK
97 PCM - PIN 9 Tach Signal

96 PCM - PIN 10 BLANK
97 PCM - PIN 10 Hot Coolant Lamp Control

My car doesn't have a change oil soon light or hot coolant lamp. I guess I could leave blank because non of the 3 extra wires on the 97 pcm will throw a DTC code.

Knowing that all 96 PCM pins are equally meet by the 97 PCM, all functions of the 1996 vehicle should work, right? It seems so, doesn't it? BUT, If the 97 PCM has a Tach Signal that 96 doesn't have, will I loss the Tach in the Cabin gauges?

All looks good now. The only question I have is whether I will loss the tach meter in the cabin factory dash gauges?

[RedZMonte]

TimG is running a FTC1 controler from Split Sec. seems to work for him.

http://www.splitsec.com/

I also sent you info from a guy selling his DHP. check your PM if you want are interested in the DHP software..

S

[Joseph Upson]

Yes, I have MAF. It is a 3100 (gen III) w/ 3400 top swap. Thats the only real mod so far. Turbo soon, hahaha, I'm so darn excited to get welding, wiring and then tearing down the highway!!!

Question, my stock injectors are old and the plastic band above the o-ring is warping from age/heat ect. Make it short, they are being replaced.

Is it ok to put in 36# injectors under stock pump? (tuning of course)

Cause I will be upgrading the boost down the road with stronger internals, the works. Having the 36#'ers ahead of that would be nice.

Run a good amount of cleaner through your stock injectors, tune using them first and after the car is running well then upgrade to the larger injectors to limit the potential tuning hassle. It's best to start simple and upgrade one step at a time. The same goes for tuning, either spark or fuel adjustments, not both at the same time. Make sure your injectors are compatible with the PCM. Some have low impedance drivers which is fine but if yours doesn't and you put low impedance injectors on it you'll burn out the drivers. If your injectors are 12ohm make sure the replacements are also.

[Schmieder]

Run a good amount of cleaner through your stock injectors, tune using them first and after the car is running well then upgrade to the larger injectors to limit the potential tuning hassle. It's best to start simple and upgrade one step at a time. The same goes for tuning, either spark or fuel adjustments, not both at the same time. Make sure your injectors are compatible with the PCM. Some have low impedance drivers which is fine but if yours doesn't and you put low impedance injectors on it you'll burn out the drivers. If your injectors are 12ohm make sure the replacements are also.

Right, good advice. However, the old injectors lower plastic ring is somewhat melted/molded and I believe it may provide sealing issues. I don't want a vacuum leak at the injectors while tuning either.

I'll just have to spend some time adjusting for the new injectors, steady and slow as to avoid damages. The way I see it, it will run rich with untuned larger injectors which is much safer then running lean. Plus, I can compensate using math. With a fuel injector calculator and some time, I could probably get the required pulse width in the ball park figures and fine tune from there on out.

The injectors are designed for 3100/3400 swaps, 36#'ers with a rail adapter to compensate the different height. So compatibility isn't an issue. Just proper fuel/air mix is all I need to work out.

Btw, does HP Tuners have a scaling method of adjustment? The tuner package seems well diversified. I have no experience with it so i don't know. Otherwise, I'll just spend some time learning and applying at a safe rate.

and yes, tune one system at a time. That I completely understand.

Any advice on HP Tuners Suite would be appreciated. Especially in the region of fuel/spark control.

and I can finally get rid of that darn RPM stop limit, change shift points, ect. I found myself a new hobby, lol

[Schmieder]

I read a few well written HP Tuner tutorials. Man, my concept of tuning was flawed. I see now just how complex it is. But that is ok, I taught myself 3dsm which has a much larger learning curve. Along with Linux, Sonar3.0 and other high end applications.

This is going to be fun. Not only will I have a Turbo that is properly tuned, I'll have an excuse, for the wife, to go out and dog it around town. I'm out gather field data to tune, lol. This is great. I can even tune my shift points to keep it in the power range. And that is a good thing cause these grand prix's have a good torque edge in lower rpm's. I can help trans life by keeping it around 5.5K RPM.

I'm surprised at all the nifty stuff one can do with HP Tuners Pro.

Being the perfectionist that I am, I'm sure I'll data log nearly every time I drive around. The more info, the better.

After having a few years of data, I could start to incorporate variables per season of year. Variables for rain or sun, humidity, ect. Ehh, maybe that is going a tad bit too far.

Guys, I can't thank you enough for all the valuable info I have acquired here.

I'm going to sport a small 60degreev6 logo on my rear side window. Usually where roadside assistance tags are placed.

[robertisaar]

Being the perfectionist that I am, I'm sure I'll data log nearly every time I drive around. The more info, the better.

<---Guilty. it's addictive.

After having a few years of data, I could start to incorporate variables per season of year. Variables for rain or sun, humidity, ect. Ehh, maybe that is going a tad bit too far.

you'll eventually start seeing patterns and will be able to tune for it, rather than around it...

as for literally programming them: it's al machine code AFAIK, at least for OBD1, but i have seen a few OBD2 hacks and it was similar...

PITA learning curve to be sure. but for just tuning, it's not too bad.