i think im gonna give up..

[Alxsmt]

ok so that is just engine size in cc?

and my stock chip the limiter is at 7k (i have hit it a few times to see if there was one lol). but the 65xxx makes sense now, but i have moved the slider both ways and havnt had it cut the fuel

so do u think that it would run good enough to drive (not exactly race). but like using a 2.8 ecu controling a stock 3400 as a comparison.. MABY if i cant figure the tunning out and dont have the money to get it tuned by the time i have it ready i would look into just buying the chip so i could break it in and drive it untill i could get it tuned perfect, but its just a thought

[SappySE107]

No, its just a hex value. 128 = 4 cylinder. Just leave it alone basically.

I think the chip would be good enough to drive but I don't know if it will want to stall on stops (i fixed that for the stock 3400 motor) or hesistate on acceleration (fixed for stock 3400). It would be many times better than the stock chip.

[Alxsmt]

ok, i will have to keep that in mind.

EDIT: how much do you sell the chip for? i noticed u dont have the 3400 swap chip in the store. i already have the chip adaptors too so i would only need the little chip (right?)

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Don't give up! That wideband instrument is your best friend. I have said this before but it is worth repeating. You can do more in a week with that than you can in a year without it!!

You've got the hardware; as in emulator and wideband; so you should have what you need to tune. There is no way to learn to tune without practice just like Ben said.

I've tuned some completely mixed-matched setups, 2 of them turbo'd in cars originally non-turbo. One is using a 2-bar MAP on a TBI 1-bar ECM, the other is a 1986 Fiero ECM in a Buick Century with 3.2 iron-head; a mostly-stock 1991 Camaro engine; a mostly-stock 1989 3800V6; a 4.3 in a boat; and a TBI system from an Astro Van on a 1944 Ford Flathead V8 with an Isky 3/4 race cam. So far all have been sucesful. (knock on wood!)

Anyway just to explain that I have had a few frustrating moments with ECM tuning!

The background work is to hook up the datalogger function of the wideband unit so it is logging the wideband air/fuel ratio, MAP sensor voltage, engine RPM, and Knock sensor (if possible). I use a Tech Edge wideband so you will need to read the directions on the analog channels on your unit. Once you can successfully log the sensors to a file on your computer, then move on to the next step. Logging the ALDL data can be done but even the 8192 baud ALDL is slow compared to the 10 samples per second of the sand-alone logger.

Hook up your scan tool and verify all sensors are working and giving "beleivable" readings. Particularly the MAP, TPS, and coolant temp sensors.

With the emulator connected, turn off "Closed Loop" in the ECM. This will prevent the ECM from covering up bad areas in your tune by making Integrator and BLM fuelling correcions. During tuning, you want the ECM running strictly off the maps in the calibration.

Your cam will affect the engine's VE at idle speed. I don't know the specs on it but looking at the other parts you have, I bet it has quite a high RPM powerband. Don't adjust any VE tables yet though. Set the desired idle speed to 1400 RPM so the engine will be able to idle without being too far "off cam."

Calculate the injector / engine size constants based on what you have put together. Someone else will have to help here, I'm not 100% familiar with your ECM. Neither of mine use EGR so I have only 1 place to put the constant.

With that constant in there, start the engine. If it will not start, move the injector constant to enrich / enlean until you get it started. Once the engine is warmed up, try to bring the injector constant back to the calculated value. Engine should be idling at 1400 RPM. If the wideband shows you are going too rich or lean, offset the VE vs. RPM table up or down to keep it at the desired Open-Loop AFR. I shoot for 14:1 at high idle no-load.

Once you have it idling at 1400 RPM with a good AFR, try to bring the idle speed down to normal. Go in small steps and watch the AFR. It will probably go rich, as the "large" cam will not breathe as well at idle as a stock cam. In the area of the RPM Vs. VE table where the engine is running, make small adjustments until the AFR is back to 14. Keep doing this until your idle is right. You want smooth transitions from one VE table cell to the next, no large jumps.

Next I would adjust the tip-in response. You don't want the engine hesitating when you step on the gas. If there is a lean hesitation, scale (multiply) the whole delta TPS enrich table by 1.1. Keep scaling it by 1.1 until the engine responds to blips of the throttle like you want it. (this adds 10% at a time to each entry without ruining the overall curve of the table)

Now you should drive the car carefully, and save datalogs of the AFR.
Each run, save a log and make some adjustments pushing it harder each time.

Your datalogger should save each field with RPM, AFR, and MAP (at least) Study the datalogs based on RPM. If all readings in a certain RPM range are universally lean, use the VE vs RPM table for the corrections. If a particlar RPM range is only lean or rich at certain MAP pressures, use the Main VE table to correct. Make small steps and remember there should not be any sharp steps in the VE table. If you have to change any 1 cell dramatically, the ones all around it should be moved also to smooth the table.

I have found that the main changes from a cam can be dealt with in the VE Vs. RPM table, with only minor changes in the Main VE table, except in the low idle, off-cam areas. This will be the hardest part to get right.

This is my general procedure to rough-in an ECM calibration on an engine that has many unknown qualitles. Most of mine have been mild cam with turbo, I have only done one "big cam" engine but have talked to others who have more big cam experience.

A few points to remember:
-The injector constant should be close to the mathematically determined value, use the VE tables to tune it instead of "falsifying" the injector constant.
-Get the fuel correct before tuning any spark.
-Save "baseline" calibrations so you can go back if you mess up and can't straighten it out!
-The PE mode AFR is usually best at 12:1. Over-enriching is a bad way to counternact pinging that is actually caused by a badly mapped ignition curve.
-MAKE SURE you start witn a properly tuned-up engine, no bad sensors, improper fuel pressure, ignition wires etc. You CAN sort of tune around these problems but when the bad parts are eventually replaced, the engine will run like crap and there is no way to fix but to start over with tuning!

Hopefully Ben and others with more tuning experience will add to or correct this. It is not hard but it requires a very deep understanding of how a spark-ignition engine runs and what the ECM is doing.

The more you play with it the easier it will be to do. You are going to be jumping off in the deep end starting out tuning this modified motor, so take your time. My first one was a 2-bar turbo engine with mix-matched ECM, intake, displacement, and just about every other thing you can imagine. It took a while but was more than worth the effort!

[Joseph Upson]

ok so that is just engine size in cc?

and my stock chip the limiter is at 7k (i have hit it a few times to see if there was one lol). but the 65xxx makes sense now, but i have moved the slider both ways and havnt had it cut the fuel

so do u think that it would run good enough to drive (not exactly race). but like using a 2.8 ecu controling a stock 3400 as a comparison.. MABY if i cant figure the tunning out and dont have the money to get it tuned by the time i have it ready i would look into just buying the chip so i could break it in and drive it untill i could get it tuned perfect, but its just a thought

You have the Innovate WBO2 why on earth are you not using it? It can help you dial in the injectors. I noted some confusion in what was interpreted and what I actually intended but rather than clarify I'll emphasize this again, since you are learning in the tuning area you should minimize your risks. I never tuned without some sort of gauge or sensor in place to inform me of my air fuel ratio status instantly.

At your experience level use all of your tools or have someone else do it for you or buy a chip. I have to disagree with Sappy to a small extent regarding the injector ratio to engine displacement example. On the same injector flow rate in the chip for a 3.1L, if you increase injector size proportionally to engine size for example 3.1L and 16 lb/hr to 3.4L and 22 lb/hr injectors the engine should run (not perfect) before you make adjustments to the chip provided the fuel pressures are the same and the injector flow characteristics are similar.

I know in this case the fuel pressures are different by about 13 psi so the specific adjustments Sappy mentioned will have to be made. My example was to help you understand the kind of manipulation you need to be familiar with when dealing with the issue.

In trying to tune the 3900 using 30 lb/hr injectors at a higher than rated fuel pressure I had to enter a larger injector size than what I actually had, I also tampered with the flow per single pulse as well as the base pulse vs. EGR and based on the responses I received I have made the suggestions that I have so far. I varied those values by a wide range before severe adverse performance occured.

I'm not an expert, I'm just sharing my experience. Use the proper size injectors, fix your codes before you change anything. Take your WBO2 unit out of the box and use it. Get TunerproRT to connect properly to your ecm so that you can check your sensors for proper function and then datalog, or buy the chip that will get you in the ballpark which unless you fix the codes will still not help you appreciably. It only takes a few seconds to ruin your engine unknowingly. You have asked some questions that indicate you need to be very careful while allowing your knowlege base to grow.

I haven't figured out the rev limiters either, however, I needed to use Tunercat to deactivate one limiter that I couldn't seem to find in TunerproRT that was holding rpm at about 4k. Having two programs also helped me identify hiccups in programming where values were different from what they should have been. I purchased Tunercat years ago before Tunerpro came into existance and wound up with it when I purchased my emulator.

Good luck and be careful, burnt piston rings and chipped pistons are hard lessons speaking from experience, you don't want to learn that way.

[1988GTU]

Hey if you don't use that wideband let me know, I sort of am looking for one.

[Alxsmt]

ok i think i leanred a few thing from the past few posts, i still got a lot to do though..

i havent hooked up the wideband yet because the car is parked (i think it has a bad pressure plate) but im not going to be driving it anywear till i get my new engine in it.. of fix the clutch lol.. but i might hook up the wideband and play with it a bit more, maby get the 3400 or 3500 injectors workin correctly on it, i would rather mess up the stock 3400 than my other one

as far as i know all the sensors work, but i plan to replace all of them with my new engine (btw the cam i have is a mid-range cam)

[SappySE107]

I have to disagree with Sappy to a small extent regarding the injector ratio to engine displacement example. On the same injector flow rate in the chip for a 3.1L, if you increase injector size proportionally to engine size for example 3.1L and 16 lb/hr to 3.4L and 22 lb/hr injectors the engine should run (not perfect) before you make adjustments to the chip provided the fuel pressures are the same and the injector flow characteristics are similar.

I know in this case the fuel pressures are different by about 13 psi so the specific adjustments Sappy mentioned will have to be made. My example was to help you understand the kind of manipulation you need to be familiar with when dealing with the issue.

In trying to tune the 3900 using 30 lb/hr injectors at a higher than rated fuel pressure I had to enter a larger injector size than what I actually had, I also tampered with the flow per single pulse as well as the base pulse vs. EGR and based on the responses I received I have made the suggestions that I have so far. I varied those values by a wide range before severe adverse performance occured.

You can't even run 19# injectors on stock 3.1 code well. Its pig rich and blows black smoke out the tailpipe. I know because I did it. You can't run 3400 injectors with the 2000+ fuel rail because that makes them 22#. You don't use the single fire or the other variable next to it as those are for the DIC. Make them FFFF and it does nothing. Only the vs EGR table is used for the constant. You adjust it based on real #, with the new injector rating. The computer doesn't care what they are at a different rating, just what it sees. This is the first thing you change, and as david said, you don't base that off what makes it run with the stock VE. You set it with math and can then tweak it a little if the VE tables are bottomed out or maxed. I prefer to start with the base VE table to get it in the ballpark and then touch the 3D VE table vs MAP.

Disable the EGR with an enable setting of 254 degrees celcius. Then use the 0% EGR setting on the constant vs EGR. Stock 3.1 is 224 in the table. 3.4 DOHC is 174 I think. My 3400 chip is 130-150. I forget which I used exactly now but you should start at 140 and see how that works out. Adjust the idle VE table to make it idle right. Idle fueling should be first.

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Only the (bpw) vs EGR table is used for the constant. You adjust it based on real #, with the new injector rating..... Disable the EGR with an enable setting of 254 degrees celcius. Then use the 0% EGR setting on the constant vs EGR....

Ok got a question. How do you recalibrate the EGR-ON constants at other than 0% EGR? I have not used EGR on my engines.

In other words, if I get the 0% EGR constant tuned and it goes from 130 stock to 150 for my new setup, how would I do the constants in the remainder of the EGR table?

My first guess would be to scale the constants in the table by the same factor by which I changed the 0% constant.

Since I went from 130 to 150 at the 0% EGR location, that changed by a factor of 1.154 So I would scale (multiply) the rest of the table by 1.154. Is this close?

Thanks,
David

[SappySE107]

Well, I used to know how to do all the math for it...maybe I will again someday:P Its written down in my def file binder that I printed out years ago. You could scale it like you said and that should be close. I always keep the EGR off as well so I haven't had to mess with it lately.

[Alxsmt]

ok finally got the car goin again and got my wideband hooked up. stock it was readin 10.3 at idle, but i have a few small leaks to fix tomorrow so i will know a more accurate reading

what do u think it will read with this ecu?

[Alxsmt]

ok today i went out to start up the car, it fired up but the wideband gauge wasnt working and just flashing... talked to some1 at innovate and they said to send it back to them.. just when i thought i was gonna play with the ostrich...

[SappySE107]

always something isn't there:P

[Alxsmt]

yeah.. its always that car too lol