3400 turbo I'm building.

[germ]

not to be a smart ass or anything, but the PCV system does not keep anything clean.

seriously, ask anyone that has a catch can setup and they will tell you exactly how dirty that air is thats being pulled into your engine and turbo.

same thing with the egr. i have seen way to many upper intakes that are clogged with gunk from the EGR and PCV system.

ever since i removed my PCV and EGR, my TB, intakes, and heads are a clean as the day i polished them with no signs of dirty air or any build up.

not only that, my turbo and intake pipe and intercooler is clean and free of any gunk that would be pulled in from a setup like the one your planning.


granted, your doing it the "right" way by sticking with your local laws, but if i had the choice, i would still do the same thing i have done.


also, there will be enough boost pressure from the turbo to seal the rings and seat the pistons and rods as you stated

also, remind me never to move to canada

but back on topic here....

[Guest]

not to be a smart ass or anything, but the PCV system does not keep anything clean.

seriously, ask anyone that has a catch can setup and they will tell you exactly how dirty that air is thats being pulled into your engine and turbo.

same thing with the egr. i have seen way to many upper intakes that are clogged with gunk from the EGR and PCV system.

ever since i removed my PCV and EGR, my TB, intakes, and heads are a clean as the day i polished them with no signs of dirty air or any build up.

not only that, my turbo and intake pipe and intercooler is clean and free of any gunk that would be pulled in from a setup like the one your planning.


granted, your doing it the "right" way by sticking with your local laws, but if i had the choice, i would still do the same thing i have done.


also, there will be enough boost pressure from the turbo to seal the rings and seat the pistons and rods as you stated

also, remind me never to move to canada

but back on topic here....

LOL, you're looking at one side of the engine for "clean", I'm looking at the other side.

You want to keep your intake path clean, I'm more worried about deposits and blockages in the crank case.

And yes, I know about catch cans, and such, I've been modifying cars, literally my entire life, I've seen many ideas come and go, many myths started and debunked, many ideas tried and failed, both by myself and by others.

PCV systems work, and they work well, if they didn't OEM manufacturers would find a different way of venting crankcase pressures.

It would be nice if they adopted a vacuum pump, making it a JY thing, but I don't see that happening.

The upper intakes that are clogged I can guarentee are from lack of maintenance, the blame is to be put on the owner/maintainer (is that a word? ) of the vehicle, not the old, failing, lack of bening maintained equipment that is being used. I've always kept my emissions equipment in tact, well not always, I did buy into the whole "emmisions equipment robs HP idea" for a while, until I did some of my own research on it, and some of my own testing, but anyway, I have found that my vehicles run better and last longer, with all the equipment in tact, then without.

My Jimmy, I had originally bypassed the EGR, because of mounting flanges, not because of "power robbing". Well I had an e-test coming up and decided it was time to put it back on and get that all straightened away, I found my truck to idle smoother and have better fuel economy then without, also seemed to be more responce and easier driven then compared to without, pretty much immediatly after installing the EGR.

I think I'll deal with my intake tract getting a bit dirty, as a trade off for keeping the emmisions cleaner, and having a better running vehicle.

Also look at anyone that is racing, drag, circle track, etc, most and most of teh quicker ones will run a crank case evac system of some sort, not just a crankcase filter. Some use the exhaust vacuum check valve system, others use vacuum pumps, and yes some even use a standard PCV system.

Yes I know there are some that run only filters, but I'm sure you'll find they won't be leading teh pack, or at least not often.

[germ]

i do not disagree what so ever on the idea of the PCV, however, in my opinion, thats something that is another "thing" that can fail and cause some major issues.

removing it solves all of my problems. and ill give up 2 hp and 2 mpg for the security of not having to worry about it failing and destroying my engine. plus, upping the boost by 1 psi, negates the power loss, lol.

also, on circle track cars (not indy or formula1) and drag cars, you generally do not see any car being turbo'd, therefor, a PCV system is a good idea and i would probably keep it on. any N/A application should keep it on for sure. super charged cars are a different ball of wax to discuss.

as for the car running "better" with the pcv, i cant say that i agree or disagree with that. i havent seen anything that would tell me that the car runs better with/without the pcv. in my case a failing pcv caused many issues and removing it caused those issues to go away. its just one less thing i have to worry about at this point.

[germ]

oh, you never aswered a question or two of mine....


that is an SSAC turbo right?

are you using an oil restrictor?

[Guest]

oh, you never aswered a question or two of mine....


that is an SSAC turbo right?

are you using an oil restrictor?

I don't know for sure that it's an SSAC, though it does look like it, bought through other means.

No oil restrictor yet, was considering it though.

[Joseph Upson]

I have read somewhere that the PCV system helps ring sealing by permitting a vacuum in the crank case, I don't care too much for it because as someone else has already stated, the oil mist from a warm engine that passes through it into the intake builds up over time. I would like to keep it intact but I don't like the oil coating in the intake, and it's likely to be greater with a turbo because of some of the high pressure getting past the rings.

The vacuum that results is certainly likely to help facilitate oil draining into the valve cover from the turbo though. If you suffer engine damage at some point such as burnt rings like I did on my first turbo project, the blow-by going into the crankcase will puff enough oil into the intake where you will have to disconnect it or smoke up the city. It still ran like a banchee but it puffed noticeably out of the valve covers; TPI 305.

Since the engine is tuned to run with the PCV valve I can see where it might lead to idle problems if disconnected.

Nice work all.

[Doubt_Incarnate]

the oil from the pcv system adds a little life in the form of top side lubrication. rings and valve stems/guides. granted its likely in excess but it is better than zero.

not turbo related but i've pondered running 2 pcv valves to draw a vacuum from each valve cover. what catatrophic events should i expect?

[Joseph Upson]

"not turbo related but i've pondered running 2 pcv valves to draw a vacuum from each valve cover. what catatrophic events should i expect?"

Competitive inhibition and an extra hole in the engine.

I didn't think about added lubrication up top but I can see the rational. I haven't used it in the near four years my turbo has been running but will look into a way to use it and prevent oil from getting into the intake, I've seen enough caked up valves from it on naturally aspirated engines to realize that after a certain point it has to defeat a 3 angle valve job and may have something to do with GMs production of a top engine cleaner.

[Doubt_Incarnate]

i think most of problem comes from the combination of heat and oil, not the oil itsself. when my motor came apart i swear there was 1/8" of carbon on the back of the valves.

[germ]

oh, you never aswered a question or two of mine....


that is an SSAC turbo right?

are you using an oil restrictor?

I don't know for sure that it's an SSAC, though it does look like it, bought through other means.

No oil restrictor yet, was considering it though.

ssac is "ssautochrome" and there are a few resellers of the same turbo.

which one is it that you got? the 57trim with .63a/r?



also, get a restrictor ASAP. the 3400 pushes to much oil pressure for the turbo. www.atpturbo.com has the correct one you would need. its the smallest they offer.

if you dont put a restrictor on, i bet the turbo will fail in 1week to 3 months before you will need to buy a new one or have it rebuild with new seals. a $10 part now will save you $300 later on.

[nocutt]

...also, get a restrictor ASAP. the 3400 pushes to much oil pressure for the turbo. www.atpturbo.com has the correct one you would need. its the smallest they offer.

if you dont put a restrictor on, i bet the turbo will fail in 1week to 3 months before you will need to buy a new one or have it rebuild with new seals. a $10 part now will save you $300 later on.

First check feed, drain and crank case to make sure they meet specifications...I think most GMV6s have about 6Xpsi of oil pressure at WOT...coupled with the type of wt oil used problems do occur (what it means at the CHRA is beyond me), but I am inclined to believe most restrictor issues only cover the problem. Remember All Garrett journal bearing turbos are internally restricted...if you buy a knock-off then it may be a problem if this part does not meet specs...the point here is oil restriction in this context maybe overstated

Edited for oil pressure.

[TurboGTU]

Wow..thats a good setup. Keep up the good work.

[germ]

First check feed, drain and crank case to make sure they meet specifications...I think most GMV6s have about 8Xpsi of oil pressure at WOT...coupled with the type of wt oil used problems do occur (what it means at the CHRA is beyond me), but I am inclined to believe most restrictor issues only cover the problem. Remember All Garrett journal bearing turbos are internally restricted...if you buy a knock-off then it may be a problem if this part does not meet specs...the point here is oil restriction in this context maybe overstated

a restrictor does not cover up anything or "band aid" anything. MANY turbo setups require an oil restrictor. to much oil pressure will cause oil to leak past the seals and start burning oil. also, it will cause the bearings to prematurely wear and will cause excessive shaft play and will eventually cause the turbo to fail. a turbo does not require much oil at all and the 60*v6 pushes way to much oil to not have a restrictor.

i only advise the restrictor because i have blown 1 turbo due to listening to someone who said that we dont need one.

and i dont know where you got that all Garrett's are internally restricted, but that doesnt matter because the 3400 pushes WAY to much oil for that turbo he has or any other journal bearing turbo. the BB turbo's may not require the use of a restrictor, but the journal bearing turbo's do.

that turbos CHRA is a K26/K27 not a Garrett anyhow.

[nocutt]

Germ I don't want to take anything from this thread,...maybe we can start a thread about all the misconceptions, myths and tradesecrets surrounding turbos...if you care

Originally posted @ 6:17 am, Wed May 24, 2006 by Germ:
A restrictor does not cover up anything or "band aid" anything. MANY turbo setups require an oil restrictor. to much oil pressure will cause oil to leak past the seals and start burning oil. also, it will cause the bearings to prematurely wear and will cause excessive shaft play and will eventually cause the turbo to fail. a turbo does not require much oil at all and the 60*v6 pushes way to much oil to not have a restrictor.

what is this oil pressure you are talking about..(.in regards to the 3400? We might end up arguing on semantics...)

In any event, there are several accounts of horror stories: using restrictor pills. Remember this things are spinning in some cases over 100,000RPMs...at this high RPM threholds they need all the oil they can get. If one is using the 'right feed' and the 'right drain' you CANNOT pressurize the CHRA, think about it for a second; as long as the drain is much larger than the feed it seems counter intuitive...and this is not idealism speaking... I know of several 2.8,3.4 and 3800s turbos that do not use restriction pills...
BTW I am vehemently saying every oil restrictor is a potential "bandaid", but for the most part if we are talking most stock setups...it may end up been kink lines, physical obstructions within the lines, hose sizes etc, etc...how many ppl actually diagnose the issue enough to warrant pills?

Germ's thought cont'd:
...and i dont know where you got that all Garrett's are internally restricted, but that doesnt matter because the 3400 pushes WAY to much oil for that turbo he has or any other journal bearing turbo. the BB turbo's may not require the use of a restrictor, but the journal bearing turbo's do...

I 'mispoke'...I meant non-journals, that would be DBB,BBs by Garrett...in essence the GTs.
Nevertheless post the oil pressure at idle, hot and WOT...and what type of oil if you don't mind...

sorry for the jack Raven

[timg]

The GT series DEFINITELY needs an oil restrictor. My GT30R has one.

My T4 does not have an oil restrictor and it does not need one.

For PCV valves and the like, I'm now running medium pressure valves from McMaster. They actually look really good. They crack at 0.3 psi, hold 400+ psi, and are good for over 400 degrees. I'm hoping that they can help keep my crankcase under vacuum at all times.

Tim