Air to CO2 intercooling!?

[Syndicated]

I think he understands the idea, but thinks it can't work in practice.

I think it is possible, but would involve modifying the core and the way the refrigerant is distributed in it as it evaporates, and maybe a different refrigerant (or oil). The compressor would not necessarily need to run the short time duration of boost for drag racing or the street. Build up pressure off-cycle, release it during boost. If I had the time to research it as a clean slate build, I would, it is an interesting concept.

He does.

So let me run through this. Lets say you we're to operate the system as you were describing, with compressed refrigerant store in a reciever. So you start your pass and let the freon go into the evap coil or "intercooler". As it picks up heat, it's pressure rises very quickly, not only due to the added heat absorbed, but due to the increasing volume of freon in the evap. Pretty soon that gas reaches saturation and starts to condense inside your evaporator, because the pressure is increasing faster than the heat. So now you've got a useless, motionless liquid sitting in your evaporator, which has now turned into a condenser.
So now your pass is over and you've got a high pressure bomb at the front of your car held in by 1/8" aluminum, so you turn te compressor back on and all that liquid floods in. Well, the same thing happens to a compressor as what happens to a motor when you hydrolock it. Smash, bang... Done!
Now you've got several pounds of freon and oil you have to get rid of cuz it's full of metal shavings, plus you need a new compressor and a good flush.

Solution? Keep the compressor running, or use a disposable refrigerant like CO2 or nitrogen sprayed over your intercooler to keep your intake air cold.

I'm not trying to be an ass.

Refrigeration and AC is what I do...

[RedZMonte]

CO2 spray or NO2 injection. you are not goint to effiecently cool the intake/boost charge with a AC compressor... may redneck-engineers have dones some crazy things on their mustangs but not saying its a great way. Syndicated is correct... and FYI CO2 is cheap to refill (cheaper then NO2) but will not produce the power of a small shot of NO2 and is also not flamible. Another option is Water/meth Injection, safe, reliable and $.99 for washer fluid to top it off.

OR better yet.... use a A-2-W cooler and install a Icemaker in the car to refill the res and keep it cool. jk

CO2 sprayer for A-2-A cooler:

[AleroB888]

He does.

So let me run through this. Lets say you we're to operate the system as you were describing, with compressed refrigerant store in a reciever.

But as far as understanding what "clean slate" means, you don't.

As much as I left my response open-ended and non-specific, you still assumed I said use an existing stock AC system and run it directly into an IC core, and then directly into a compressor.
I didn't.

"Clean slate" means examining all the potential design problems, then using all available devices and methods to eliminate them. Obviously, you don't want to run liquid through the compressor, and obviously, the IC core would have to be redesigned. With a variety of devices available, like accumulators, thermostatic expansion controls, reversing valves, multiple evaporators and condensers, I don't rule out any system concept where the only constraint is the compressor shuts off for a few seconds, then is smart enough not to switch back on unless it's safe.

Solution? Keep the compressor running, or use a disposable refrigerant like CO2 or nitrogen sprayed over your intercooler to keep your intake air cold.

As easy as that sounds, you have a highly pressurized bottle that may or may not be track legal for the intended purpose, located away from the engine compartment, manually shut on and off, and still, you would need to modify an AW IC core for even distribution of the refrigerant. Not that I wouldn't try it.

[Syndicated]

But as far as understanding what "clean slate" means, you don't.

As much as I left my response open-ended and non-specific, you still assumed I said use an existing stock AC system and run it directly into an IC core, and then directly into a compressor.
I didn't.

"Clean slate" means examining all the potential design problems, then using all available devices and methods to eliminate them. Obviously, you don't want to run liquid through the compressor, and obviously, the IC core would have to be redesigned. With a variety of devices available, like accumulators, thermostatic expansion controls, reversing valves, multiple evaporators and condensers, I don't rule out any system concept where the only constraint is the compressor shuts off for a few seconds, then is smart enough not to switch back on unless it's safe.



As easy as that sounds, you have a highly pressurized bottle that may or may not be track legal for the intended purpose, located away from the engine compartment, manually shut on and off, and still, you would need to modify an AW IC core for even distribution of the refrigerant. Not that I wouldn't try it.

If Nos is legal, why wouldn't an inert gas like CO2? Yet many pounds of a mildy toxic, environmentally damaging gas would be?

Here's something else, cooling function of a compression-expansion cooling system is a finely tuned correlation between refrigerant capacity, compressor pumping ability, size of Evap and condenser coils and the flow rate through the system.

Think about how much heat that turbo adds to the air, through heat soak from the exhaust, to compressing the air, plus heat added from friction.
You'll need a system on the order of several tons (1t = 12,000 btu) to remove that heat quickly enough.
The A/C system in most houses is 2-5t. And look at the size of those!

I'll tell you what, show me how it can be done safely, properly and I'll pay for it.

[unchained01]

OH SHIT. The line in the sand is drawn !!!

[pocket-rocket]

OH SHIT. The line in the sand is drawn !!!

Lol.

It does put things in perspective in my mind.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[AleroB888]

Here's something else, cooling function of a compression-expansion cooling system is a finely tuned correlation between refrigerant capacity, compressor pumping ability, size of Evap and condenser coils and the flow rate through the system.

Think about how much heat that turbo adds to the air, through heat soak from the exhaust, to compressing the air, plus heat added from friction.

Well, I've got a supercharger, but yes, you are correct. Depending on under-the-hood condtions, the SC outlet temps can run 50-100 degrees above ambient, before compression even takes place (unless you have huge vents in the hood like I do). This is the area that a front-mount air-to-air unit has the advantage.

You'll need a system on the order of several tons (1t = 12,000 btu) to remove that heat quickly enough.
The A/C system in most houses is 2-5t. And look at the size of those!

I'll tell you what, show me how it can be done safely, properly and I'll pay for it.

If I were sure it could be done, I'd pay you to do it lol

You are correct, and I also have doubts, as I said in an earlier post, that the efficiency of this type system will be high enough. I had some refrigeration training, got certified in 1994, but only a couple months in the field. Enough to get a good idea of the size and weight of the components!

In particular, the size of Evap, in the case of my air-to-water, is only about 5x5x11 inches, aluminum. That does not give us much surface area to work with, but the structure of it is a concern too, designed for low pressures.

The only shot at a method that I can imagine would be the old throwback type flooded system:

http://www.refrigers.com/img_article/233e

Good heat transfer due to liquid in the Evap, maintains low temp during off-cycle. Remote mount of the IC core is also necessary, of course. We are free to use any refrigerant, and operate the system under any reasonable amount of pressure and vacuum (for the sake of argument)

So, assuming the core is at ambient 90 degrees, moving 500 CFM for 15 seconds with an arbitrary temp rise of 100 degrees, can it be done?

[ericjon262]

another interesting idea I have seen was in this video on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ek0Zf64NVso

make a shroud that goes around an A2A and pack it full of dry ice...

[unchained01]

Those things are SICK I never realized they raced like that i need to get "out" more LMAO !!! My father used to do the same thing on his Hemi crossran mani A safer alternative to having the throttle linkage jammed and grenading a motor at the line

[TGP37]

I wonder if......

Compress the intake air really high, 120 psi. It gets really hot and will release heat in the intercooler. The hotter the gas, the more heat energy is released per second.

Then, reduce the intake pressure to the desired boost level, like 12 psi. As the intake charge expands it cools off.



Sort of like treating the intake charge like it were A/C gas.

Would be squeezing more heat out of the intake. Of course, energy is spent compressing that high. May only break even from the extra power generated from cooler, more dense intake.

[pocket-rocket]

I wonder if......

Compress the intake air really high, 120 psi. It gets really hot and will release heat in the intercooler. The hotter the gas, the more heat energy is released per second.

Then, reduce the intake pressure to the desired boost level, like 12 psi. As the intake charge expands it cools off.



Sort of like treating the intake charge like it were A/C gas.

Would be squeezing more heat out of the intake. Of course, energy is spent compressing that high. May only break even from the extra power generated from cooler, more dense intake.

I would like to see the size of the compressor pumping the volume of air your engine needs to that kind of pressure. I would also like to know the kind of power needed to turn it.

It seems kind of like that old top fuel email that went around years ago.

"A stock hemi can't even produce the power needed to run a top fuel supercharger."

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[TGP37]

I also still consider the properties of a ranque-hilsch vortex cooler feasible to some degree.

The idea is spin the air up and bleed off the outer layer where it is at it's hottest. The returning vortex in the center is cold. It is driven by positive pressure from compressed air....however, a vacuum on the other side will do just the same.

I imagine an aluminum built version, oversized to meet the flow needs of the engine, should cool the air some.

In a way, it is filtering out the heat in the air by focusing it and bleeding just enough. In turn, the used air is colder.

No complicated moving parts either.