Question : would 2 m90's create way too much heat?

[no_doz]

Please dont flame the crap out of me. with that said, ive been looking at the difference between the cost of a used eaton m90 roots supercharger & the larger ones (the common being the m112 i believe) & the m90's can be picked up for around 100-200 bucks whereas the larger m series chargers were 600+. my question to you is if an intake was made up for it, the hood got one hell of a hole cut in it, the belt hooked up & a tune to run with it-without an intercooler would this create way too much heat? id like to eventually put something together that pushes high 300's & eventually to 400 once i have the crank done & the pistons for it, but will all the extra heat created be counterproductive? from what ive seen an m90 is very unlikely to push over 350 on 3.1 & thats only with a lot of mods pushing the charger to its limits (also seen with 3.8s, so the 3.1 might only push 300 or so with only one), but with 2 of them i could put a set of pulleys on them to where they arent being overworked, hopefully taking care of the heat problem, considering if it would save the money & have something crazy powerful & unique in the long run (altho the 4-5" cowl might look a little strange lol) what do you guys think?

[1988GTU]

Guessing while tampering with the alcohol bottle tonight, I'd say you'd have more parasitic loss from the twin m90's than the engine would benefit from it.

It would be cheaper to spend 800 (totally ball parking high here) on a m112 and make it simpler than to waste material on 2 m90's, one weird awkward intake manifold, and deal with all the dual plumbing and what not.

Why try and invent the oval wheel when the round one is proven better?

qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm1234567890,.;'[]-=`

[no_doz]

at this point the idea of twin chargers just sounds ridiculously badass if at all feasible, and at $500 difference in price of just the charger, id be happy to setup the intake & such.

if it was easy itd be a bolt on & if it was a bolton itd be on an eclipsecivicaccord.

from what ive read the max parasitic loss is around 37-40hp & thats also at high rpms with a smaller pulley, while running at the preferred or just slightly above the preferred speed, the parasitic loss should be around 50hp total, but i intend to remove my ac to comp a little bit, & considering these m90s have proven to be easily able of flowing 280hp worth of air in relatively stock trim on a 3.8,

does anyone have the math that would be necessary to figure out what the hp gain would be if used in conjunction with 2001+ mildly ported 3400 heads as well as the actual parasitic loss with stock pulleys or slightly smaller than stock (you choose), & im going to try & make sure i get ones from 2001+ gtp's for the additional updates to the charger itself.

[1988GTU]

Lets say you score 2 m90's at $150 each.
=300.00


Savings so far $200.
=200

Now lets look at the cost of TWO Intercoolers (if you plan on the traditional IN MANIFOLD style, $100 each (not including plumbing hardware) .
= 200
Then include the pulley system... Ouch.
=Ouch $?

ORRRRRRRR

Then say on ebay there's a m112 for $500 BIN.
=500
Then factor in the laughs you'd get from people that'd understand what you just created when all you needed to do was a M112, depressed, mad, hate the world.
=Hate the world

See where I am going with this?

Do the M112. I wouldn't pursue this anymore for twin m90's thinking. I'll do the same! CHEERS! :drink:

[no_doz]

backup-the cost of the m112 has been 600 at the CHEAPEST-most have been 800, and i do not intend to use intercoolers-that would be a god awful nightmare that would be very pointless with this type of roots charger. thats why im asking if this will be too much heat, because itll all be pumped right into the engine & not thru an intercooler. will this be too much heat or is this all a matter of tuning?

i also have a machinist buddy that said for a case of beer & some time to chill & bs & give him a hand with some things hed be happy to help me fab up an intake, so im not concerned with that as well.

im just worried is this too much heat for 6-8psi of operation with 2 of these to make power or is that all a matter of tuning & just running it to see- (for now id keep it at 3psi until i can get some internal upgrades)?

lol P.S. that hate the world comment was very funny & did make me think, i do understand where you are coming from, thats why i propose all the crazy shit i come up with on here so intelligent people like yourself and others can help me double check my own half ass (at times) logic.

[Superdave]

turbo

[2.8RS]

If you go M90 get the genV blower rather than the genIII, the Vs are much more efficient and create less heat. If you are hoping for high power you would have to intercool especially with a small pulley.

[no_doz]

i more than likely will be running stock pulleys, but im not rigging up an intercooler-2 would be bad enough but the intercooler piping would be just retardedly complex. also ill be getting GenV blowers, not the older ones.

[ssdurango]

Twin blowers is a cool idea if your hp goal was 500 or so. It's a of waste of horsepower to spin those blowers up but not REALLY move any air.

I have a single m90 and @ 12 psi, it makes ~300 bhp. If you get a gen 4+ blower or an aftermarket blower case you could make even more....2 $200 ebay blowers will make more heat then one GOOD blower.

[2.8RS]

Look up ZZP or TDC performance for intercoolers, if you change your mind that is. Both of them offer air to water intercoolers that go between the blower and manifold. The only thing you have to run are water lines to an FMIC.

[no_doz]

thank you very much for that site & all the info so far, now if i just could find one that could flow 2 (that would be a DEFINITE future investment when i can afford it). so for now, if i have the boost set low (3-6psi?) and a proper tune, intake setup, all the misc little piping & lines, new pistons, & 2001+ 3400 heads cut down .030" off the surface for a better quench & higher CR, & no IC, do you guys think this could push 400-420 wheel horse? if its more than that-thats fantastic. if 2 of the gen 4-5 blowers with stock pulleys could push 500 horse on a 3.1 than by all means please help me do it!

my buddy who is stationed in iraq in the army went out & bought a brand new 370z sport edition with 6 speed manual rev matching, the works. this damn thing cost him $30,000.00, has 335 BHP & weighs 3200lbs, & he gets back to flaunt that shit ato me in 4 months.

i have a 4x4 dodge fullsize DD to sell, a 93 camaro v6 auto DD with 64k miles on it that im fixing the damaged rocker/quarter soon & itll look as good as it runs (except the semi poor 20 mpg), and a 94 GTP with 140k sitting in the garage that isnt the prettiest with the messed up bumper but the engine & trans are good, just gotta figure out why it wont start.

i intend to fix & sell all of these vehicles & to put the money into doing this to my lumina coupe so that when he gets back i can beat his ass with something that cost me less than 1/6th as much (i only paid $500 for the lumina in the first place & its in pretty good shape). and with it being AMERICAN (hes a big muscle car buff, so it would really smoke his ass, plus he told me i could -never- make my lumina take a 370 without TONS of nitrous). i also have a cousin with a 400+gp 06 GTO 6 speed that thinks i could never take his car, so thats where the whole 400-420 comes from, but honestly if i could push 500 horse without an intercooler with the newer blowers ill do it!

then again i aslo intend to do a 6 speed f40 swap-anyone know where i could find a performance rebuild kit for one of those so that 400+ whp wont eat it alive?

[bszopi]

3400 heads cut down .030" off the surface for a better quench & higher CR

You would actually be ruining the quench if you took that much off, as well as making it easier for piston to valve contact. Once again, not really looking at the whole picture when you start spouting out all of these ideas.

And unless your machinist friend is just a complete moron, there is no way you are going to get a manifold that will work for just a case of beer and some chill time. Unless, perhaps the chill time has him chilling to you while you are on your knees...

if i have the boost set low (3-6psi?) and a proper tune

If you are shooting for 6-12psi, then you are just wasting your time with trying to do a dual SC setup. A single M90 will most likely be capable of 9psi and be more efficient than 2 M90s trying to push the same 9psi, let alone 12psi. And then there is the JY SC deal... do you exactly know what you are getting for $200? You may grenade an SC right off, and then all your work is shot. Cheap SCs usually don't mean good quality SCs.

[no_doz]

sorry for posting books like i am but im looing on that intecooler site & i just noticed that they sell 1 inch or so tall IC's for like 300 apiece, so i could get 2 of those & mount them between the IC's & the intake so as longer as the intake is made with that in mind, that should allow me to run a good deal leaner without engine damage & with making hp easier-am i correct?

also im kinda considering swapping the GTP 3.4 dohc into the lumina & building it, but i havent seen these things to be very reliable, let alone when i go & try strapping 2 S/C's to it!

or would i be better off to get 1 gen 5 m90 blower & an intercooler setup-with this on either the 3.1 or lq1, could i push 400 wheel horse?

[robertisaar]

+10 points for Brad...

and no_doz, you do realise the supercharged 3.8s make like 5-6psi(at least) with a stock pulley? now equip it to a motor thats 20.1% smaller. if the 3.8s make 6 psi, then you'll already be at 7.2 with the stock pulley with one blower.

its not worth the pain and expense to make something more complex than it needs to be when there are better options for cheaper...

either get a genVM90 or a M112, figure out the intake, add a IC for christs sake(it builds more power and lowers the chance of detonation). when you get that far, think about how much power you can actually push through the tranny before it goes.

EDIT: WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO RUN LEANER? play it safe and run at 11:1 WOT. 400whp is attainable, given that the rest of the motor has been dealt with as well.

[no_doz]

no my machinist friend owes me for my help hauling 50 f'in tons of machinist equipment & machines into his shop & helping him set it all up, for nothing but a case of beer. yea it was a shitty couple of days so he is more than happy to help me in my downtime as long as i give him credit for anything he did upon completion of a running project.

also with a newer blower & intercooler-could i push 400 even if at the crank-with 3400 heads, tune, & IC?