Few Turbo Questions

[PCGUY112887]

1996 Grand Prix, 3100, 117k miles... new gaskets from the LIM up.

I'm trying to think of the cheapest, easiest way to add some power. A turbo seems like a good solution, running about 10psi with everything stock. But after all of my reading, I'm curious about a few things.

1, the turbo it's self. What inexpensive turbo (new or used) should I look at? I was hoping to find one with a built in wastegate, and one that didn't need oil lines, just coolant... much easier to hookup (could just hookup to where the TB coolant hoses go).

2, limiting pressure... I know the wastegate limits the overall pressure, but how do you set it to say 10psi? I don't quite understand how a boost controller works if there is a spring on the wastegate that makes it open at X pressure.

3, transmission. How long is the 4t60e going to hold up? How much work would it need to safely hold the power this will make?

4, exhaust. Could I just grab an extra crossover and rear exhaust mani, and have a flange welded to the crossover and the exit on the rear exhaust mini closed up?

5, room. Is there any way I can fit this in the engine bay without having to move the battery? Cheap/easy is the key here, and moving the battery costs for a new battery and the stuff to move it.

6, injectors. What could I use that would be a direct replacement? Stock pump should be enough for only 10psi...?

7, tune. Say I got a DHP tuner, everyone says you need a good tune. But what exactly do they mean? I mean you plug it in and stuff, start it for the first time... how do you tune without worrying about it popping from NOT being tuned? What exactly is "tuning", like what do you have to watch/stock/change/ and test.

[Guest]

adding a turbo is not cheap so all your points afterwards are not needed

[El_Diablo]

i suck at turbo maps and such so i'll just answer a few of your questions

2- a boost controler bleeds off boost until your set PSI is reached, basically your fooling the wastegate to see less boost than its actually allowing, so say you have a 6psi spring and you want to run 8psi, you esentially have to bleed off 2psi of boost at the waste gate to reach your target of 8psi

4- not the best way to do things but it will work, you just wont make as much power as you would with custom manifolds and a custom crossover

5- you dont have to purchase a new battery to relocate it, all you need is maybe 14 feet of 4 gauge or larger cable and some terminals and a sealed battery box and your good to go, total should be less than $70

6- if you dont know how to tune yet i suggest keeping the boost down which means you shouldn't even need new injectors

7- when we say tuning is everything it really is, you can have a great setup that SHOULD make 500hp but for lack of tuning will really make 300hp, this all being theoretical of course... i would deffinetly suggest getting a tuner before hand and learning what every function does and getting used to it on a n/a setup where things are less risky, then atleast you know how to tune your car when the time comes to boost it, it should start fine without and problems at anything up to 8psi though and then you can dial it in from there, just dont go out and give it full throttle the first time out, just carefully watch your parameters and if need be adjust your timing and fuel curve accordingly as you slowly increase your throttle inputs

[PCGUY112887]

adding a turbo is not cheap so all your points afterwards are not needed

Depends what you consider "cheap"... under $800 is what I was thinking.

[ForcedFirebird]

1996 Grand Prix, 3100, 117k miles... new gaskets from the LIM up.

I'm trying to think of the cheapest, easiest way to add some power. A turbo seems like a good solution, running about 10psi with everything stock. But after all of my reading, I'm curious about a few things.

1, the turbo it's self. What inexpensive turbo (new or used) should I look at? I was hoping to find one with a built in wastegate, and one that didn't need oil lines, just coolant... much easier to hookup (could just hookup to where the TB coolant hoses go).

2, limiting pressure... I know the wastegate limits the overall pressure, but how do you set it to say 10psi? I don't quite understand how a boost controller works if there is a spring on the wastegate that makes it open at X pressure.

3, transmission. How long is the 4t60e going to hold up? How much work would it need to safely hold the power this will make?

4, exhaust. Could I just grab an extra crossover and rear exhaust mani, and have a flange welded to the crossover and the exit on the rear exhaust mini closed up?

5, room. Is there any way I can fit this in the engine bay without having to move the battery? Cheap/easy is the key here, and moving the battery costs for a new battery and the stuff to move it.

6, injectors. What could I use that would be a direct replacement? Stock pump should be enough for only 10psi...?

7, tune. Say I got a DHP tuner, everyone says you need a good tune. But what exactly do they mean? I mean you plug it in and stuff, start it for the first time... how do you tune without worrying about it popping from NOT being tuned? What exactly is "tuning", like what do you have to watch/stock/change/ and test.

1. Good luck finding a good turbo that doesn't need oil, how can something rotate in excess of 100,000RPM with no oil? Some turbos only require oil, some oil and coolant - if I'm wrong someone correct me. Cheap (new) turbos can be had off e-bay for less that $200 (just watch who you buy from). I got one of these and at least one other person is running one on here w/30k miles on it.
2. The way a boost controller works, this is a quick explaination not into major detail. The sping in a wastegate is set for the "minimum boost" and as the boost rises above a particular pressure, the pressure is enough to overcome the spring and allow more exhaust gasses escape lowering boost (by using a vacuum-type line). The boost controller bleeds off the "vacuum" line keeping tension on the spring, and in turn raising boost. You can't have a lower boost setting than what the spring is rated for. (I have a 3.63PSI spring and that's the lowest boost that I can get, although the "high" setting is limited by the turbo)
3. Don't know about the FWD tranny.
4. The two easiest ways to turbo is to have one turbo for each bank of cyls on a manifold, or put one turbo at the end of a y-pipe. Remote is another way to go, but that's a whole new thread in itself.
5. Moving the battery is not that bad, but depending on your particular car, it may be necessary.
6. Several injectors should fit right in place of yours, I have a set of 24# Ford injectors on my car now and were a direct replacement w/o modification.
7. "Tune" is a term used to describe reaching the "perfect" air-to-fuel ratio and spark timing to decrease detonation and increase power.

[PCGUY112887]

1. Good luck finding a good turbo that doesn't need oil, how can something rotate in excess of 100,000RPM with no oil? Some turbos only require oil, some oil and coolant - if I'm wrong someone correct me. Cheap (new) turbos can be had off e-bay for less that $200 (just watch who you buy from). I got one of these and at least one other person is running one on here w/30k miles on it.

That's what I figured, but someone else told me that their turbo on their stock 91 Talon has no oil lines, just coolant... leading me to believe there was a way to have sealed bearings or something.

4. The two easiest ways to turbo is to have one turbo for each bank of cyls on a manifold, or put one turbo at the end of a y-pipe. Remote is another way to go, but that's a whole new thread in itself.

y-pipe where? Seems like you could unbolt the down pipe and add a U piece to come back up to the turbo...

[ForcedFirebird]

That's what I figured, but someone else told me that their turbo on their stock 91 Talon has no oil lines, just coolant... leading me to believe there was a way to have sealed bearings or something.



y-pipe where? Seems like you could unbolt the down pipe and add a U piece to come back up to the turbo...

I happen to have 2 of those Talon turbos in my garage and they are both oil and water cooled.
That's what I mean by y-pipe, connecting the two manifolds to the turbo.

[timg]

Under $800 is going to be incredibly difficult to do unless you do everything yourself using mostly used or e-bay parts. I recommend checking www.turbobygarrett.com for more general information about how turbo systems work. You will find a lot of good information there. Find out as much about turbo systems as you can, and then revisit these questions.

Tim

[Joseph Upson]

There is a self maintaining turbo unit with a built in oil reservoir using aircraft turbine oil. The most helpful book I've come across on turbocharging is Maximum Boost which is where I discovered such a turbo, called the aerocharger;

http://www.hiperturbo.com/default.htm

I prefer the dependability of oil fed and water cooled turbos
.

[PCGUY112887]

Ok so what about a standard turbo (that requires oil heh), what model would be good to look for on ebay/the junkyard to feed my 3100?

[Joseph Upson]

Ok so what about a standard turbo (that requires oil heh), what model would be good to look for on ebay/the junkyard to feed my 3100?

For a beginner the T3 used on the Mustang SVO and Thunderbird with a .63 turbine housing and .60 compressor will work for a low boost application 7-8 psi with an intercooler. They are very popular and show up on Ebay an average of about once a week. You can probably have a 3.1 turbo crossover manifold modified to accept it.

[PCGUY112887]

Another question.

Would a T25/T28 be too small? Someone tells me that it's way too small since a T25 can't power his talon to redline, but a T25 came stock on TGP's and people have made good ammounts of power with them.

As far as oiling goes, where is the easiest place one could I tap into to get some oil pressure flowing? What about draining? I rather not have to drill into the oil pan since I'm going for simple, gotta be somewhere easier I could drain oil into.

Thanks.

[Z3R0]

I'm also interested in this thread cuz i plan on buying a turbo from ebay today...and i own a 3100 also.

[Joseph Upson]

Another question.

Would a T25/T28 be too small? Someone tells me that it's way too small since a T25 can't power his talon to redline, but a T25 came stock on TGP's and people have made good ammounts of power with them.

As far as oiling goes, where is the easiest place one could I tap into to get some oil pressure flowing? What about draining? I rather not have to drill into the oil pan since I'm going for simple, gotta be somewhere easier I could drain oil into.

Thanks.

I wouldn't go with anything smaller than a T3 despite what GM put on the TGP to keep power out of the liability range when in the wrong hands. You should be able to get the oil pan off that car without having to go to the extreme and unless you can get the turbo up above the valve covers the only other option to drilling into the oil pan is a pump which I would hate to see the results of if it failed while driving. I try to avoid low cost options to extra work that could shut the car down completely as well as take days to get repaired due to parts availability.

[Guest]

I wouldn't go with anything smaller than a T3 despite what GM put on the TGP to keep power out of the liability range when in the wrong hands. You should be able to get the oil pan off that car without having to go to the extreme and unless you can get the turbo up above the valve covers the only other option to drilling into the oil pan is a pump which I would hate to see the results of if it failed while driving. I try to avoid low cost options to extra work that could shut the car down completely as well as take days to get repaired due to parts availability.

Yep, there's only one turbo build I've done that had the turbo drain into something other than the pan, and that was because the turbo was placed above the rear valve cover on a 3400, I installed in a '94 Cavalier.



Here is the entire drain back tube:


And a detail pic of it installed:


In short it wasn't the easiest to place the turbo there, but it is the ONLY way that you could use such a technique. Gravity has a huge factor in this.