The Europeans Are Still Masters

[RednBlack]

I guess you would have to call this art.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11352/features-review-pininfarina-ferrari-p45.html

[prophiseer]

meh. I'm not all that particular about C&D's 'reviews'. I personally feel that 90% of what they write is biased and close minded. The car is rated at a 0-60mph time of 3.3 - wow. Don't mean crap to me when it might take the car 16+ seconds to run a 1/4, y'know? Same magazine that when reviewing the Pontiac Aztek, called it an ugly, impractical excuse for an SUV (although never citing that the Aztek was amoung the highest in safety ratings), but when the Honda Element rolls into their pages they praise it's brilliant design and engineering. I think most of their reviews are influence by those that advertise in their pages (which is mostly european and asian manufacturers).

And anyways, Italian cars are for the wealthy that have too much money, don't really know squat about a car, and can afford a vehicle that has a 5% service market. Waste of money, IMO.

[geoffinbc]

I agree 100%. I freaking hate C&D. Worst read ever. They also rated the Toyata Matrix higher than the Pontiac Vibe. Its the same damn car for fuck sakes. Hate the magazine I never buy it. I like R&T and all my other Mags are Chevy High Performance, Engine Masters and Hot Rod. Sometimes I like reading GM High Tech mag too. But not alot of places have that one.

[RidgeRunner]

That is a seriously hawt car, regardless of who wrote the article.

[Fiero Brick]

I agree 100%. I freaking hate C&D. Worst read ever. They also rated the Toyata Matrix higher than the Pontiac Vibe. Its the same damn car for fuck sakes. Hate the magazine I never buy it. I like R&T and all my other Mags are Chevy High Performance, Engine Masters and Hot Rod. Sometimes I like reading GM High Tech mag too. But not alot of places have that one.

Engine Masters rocks out. I wish they'd provide more info related specifically to modern/OHC engines, but then, most people who hop up modern cars pay other people do to it for them and could care less as long as it runs, so I understand why they can't afford to put a bunch of that type info in there.

Oh, and C&D sucks more than my shopvac.

That Pininfarina looks nice from the side scoops forward, but the rear end somehow doesn't feel as agressive as the front looks.

[Lyle's GTP]

meh. I'm not all that particular about C&D's 'reviews'. I personally feel that 90% of what they write is biased and close minded. The car is rated at a 0-60mph time of 3.3 - wow. Don't mean crap to me when it might take the car 16+ seconds to run a 1/4, y'know? Same magazine that when reviewing the Pontiac Aztek, called it an ugly, impractical excuse for an SUV (although never citing that the Aztek was amoung the highest in safety ratings), but when the Honda Element rolls into their pages they praise it's brilliant design and engineering. IMO.

I agree 100%. I freaking hate C&D. Worst read ever. They also rated the Toyata Matrix higher than the Pontiac Vibe. Its the same damn car for fuck sakes. Hate the magazine I never buy it. I like R&T and all my other Mags are Chevy High Performance, Engine Masters and Hot Rod. Sometimes I like reading GM High Tech mag too. But not alot of places have that one.

I agree C&D is bought and paid for. But in these situations they seem to be correct. The Aztec was/is a horrible peice of crap, just take a look. Hop in take it for a spin. Junk. BTW what exactly does "an ugly, impractical excuse for an SUV" have to do with safety? Junk.

As far as the Matrix vs. Vibe debate goes. Sure, "same car" except for one thing. Resale value. Take the same options, same purchase price and see which one you get more for on a resale. This is just one example that can't be denied. These resale differences are not because C&D is in Toyotas pocket.

It's because GM got greedy. They don't even know what there own customers want. How many prospective GM buyers do you think jumped ship because GM thought that dumping it's affordable muscle cars was a good idea? Now Ford and Chrysler are cashing in. Now they are scrambling to scrape together a new Camaro. One that totaly rips off Fords idea of reworked retro. Pretty funny for one of the largest most powerful corporations in the world.

I would say that the only hope they have is to keep buying up other auto manufacturers. But keep there greedy, corner cutting fingers from tainting a good thing. Just like they have done to all the other respectable auto companies they have taken over and manipulated.

Lyle

[prophiseer]

I can't really say I totally agree with all your statments

As far as the Aztek is concerned, I've worked and driven quite a few of them and was overall impressed by the interior size, how well they handled for an SUV and how reliable they tended to be. I think the only real drawback the Aztek had was a lack of an AWD option until it's last year. I think it was just people interpretaton of the cosmetic look. In comparission, the Aztek's sister car the Buick Rendezvous, sold nearly twice as well and it's sales were comparable to the Element. People for some reason have grown to like bland vehicle styling, instead of that bold, in-your-face style that Pontiac was known for.

As far as the Matrix/Vibe, The Vibe has been trimmed back horribly. When it first debuted, the high end Vibe was faster and more well-equipped than the high end Matrix, but people couldn't justify the difference in cost, that and the notion that Toyota builds more reliable cars (although mechanically the Vibe/Matrix was more engineered by GM, just using Toyota's parts). That is what kept the Matrix's value higher, even though they were cheaper off the dealer's lot and sold twice as well.

The rest, I do agree with. GM has done some ape-shit things the last few years, without a doubt. I can't believe they are currently relying on their SUV and Truck lines to carry their profit margin, especially with gas prices continuing to rise across the country.

I think, though, that if GM would start offering a better warranty program on their vehicles, they would prob have an increase in sales. I'm sorry but 3 years or 36000 miles is sad compared to what Honda, Nissan, Toyota, VW, etc. offer.

[RacerX11]

The car is rated at a 0-60mph time of 3.3 - wow. Don't mean crap to me when it might take the car 16+ seconds to run a 1/4, y'know?

Now that is just plain stupid. Show me one car that runs 0-60mph in 3.3 seconds and takes 16+ to run a 1/4 mile.

I think, though, that if GM would start offering a better warranty program on their vehicles, they would prob have an increase in sales. I'm sorry but 3 years or 36000 miles is sad compared to what Honda, Nissan, Toyota, VW, etc. offer.

You want a better warranty? Expect to pay more for the car. The cost of a warranty is passed on to the buyer. At a time when GM is losing money on cars, don't expect them to lose even more money by offering a better warranty.

[prophiseer]

Now that is just plain stupid. Show me one car that runs 0-60mph in 3.3 seconds and takes 16+ to run a 1/4 mile.

That statement I made was entirelly exaggerated, I was just pointing out that the only numbers anyone publishes anymore are 0-60 times. You'd think C&D would be able to do better than that.

As far as the warranty/price of car goes, most of the vehicles cost nowadays is tied up in labor costs (thanks in big part to work unions), but they're losing to much of a market share to Hyundai, Honda/Acura, Nissan, and Toyota due to extended vehicle warranties. Ford is trying to offer extended warranties on their trucks right now, but we'll have to see how that goes with them wanting to shut down the Ford plant here (really stupid, IMO).

I just think that if GM tightened their warranty program a bit more (they're starting to, tried returning a GM part under warranty recently?), and extend the new vehicle coverage, it'd really help them out and would say to the public that they trust their own vehicles to stay on the road.

Extended warranties don't have to be all that black and white, though. Hyundai's is very much up to interpretation of what part goes bad, and if it's in part due to owner neglect (in which case said warranty for part is out the window). Even still, if something is covered, it can take weeks just to get parts, which makes it kinda ridiculous, but people don't know about this stuff when they buy the car - all their seeing is the decent price with a 10yr warranty.

[tijuana_no]

man ,i like to see guy's get in this s**t,is like politics,some common sense ,some dummnes,some stupidity,a little bit of everything,cool is great.
i just like to say i hate japannese cars ,in the early days america built some awsome cars ,cars that represented us well in the wrold of car making,europeans wanted to ride owr cars (yes they did).then they came with there pieces of crap,introduce themself as inexpensive (they were but cheap).brainwash the americans ,americans stared to compered there cars to those jap's cars forcing automakers to compete downgrading owr cars to a point to where they are the same.that brings the point why jap's cars hold there value better,cause people still brainwash ,beliving that jap's cars are better.and that is just my point of view ,there is more ,but that is enough for right now.

if i had the money i would buy a ferrari , and man that would not be a waste of money.i also agree that c&d is one sided .

[Lyle's GTP]

Well, I think brainwashing is a bunch of crap. If you noticed what was going on in the world when all the domestics started down-grading their cars to be more like the imports. The price of oil sky rocketed, so did the price of gas. In fact if you consider in inflation, when things were at there worst. The equivalent cost of a barrel of oil to todays market, oil was over $90.00 US per barrel.

So, the smaller more fuel efficient imports started to grab a hugh market share. Because people actually though it was going to stay that way. So, the domestics started building lighter, more bare-bones 4 and 6 cylinder cars. At the time it had nothing to do with reliability.

Have you ever noticed the early Jap cars were horrible. Maybe the engines were OK, but the chassis were a joke. The bodies were practically falling apart in a year. This continued up until the late 80's, then they started to learn a little. Now their cars are top notch and have been for over 15 years. Rated better than domestics, for build quality, reliability, warranty and so on. Even by the local, mags and papers.

To me this is very apparent. I used to work in a production engine rebuild shop. For example I would repair hundreds of GM 350's. You know that engine block/head design was not really changed at all in about 30+ years. They all cracked in the exact same spots. Nothing was done to fix the problems, they just kept on building. So, anybody who wanted a truly reliable, high performance 350 had to use trial and error to find one that had a better casting. A casting that at the time was done with better metals making them just a little stronger. BTW these were not recent casting either they were very, very old, and very scarce.

Another funny thing. We used to have a 1998 Malibu, what a piece, always some problem with it. Always did the maintenace religously, but always needed work. Gaskets, alternators, what have you. Even asked around, maybe it was a "lemon". Nope, had friends that had two newer model Malibu's, same shit.

At the same time my best friend has a 1997 Honda Accord. Doesn't have a lick of trouble with it. Nothing. It never left him stranded, always drove like a dream. Never needed warranty work. When he sold it he got 10 grand on trade. He got robbed, he could have got 13 if he had sold privately. A year later we are trying to sell our Malibu with more options more power and less miles. We could only get 3000 on a trade and 5000 privately.

Now we have a Mazda 3. Been two years now never had a sniff of trouble. Thing still drives as good as the day we bought it.

My best friend bought another Accord, not a sniff either. His parents, same thing.

Now try this sometime. Take a look when you drive down the road. When you see a car broken down, see if it is a domestic or an import. I've been doing this for a while now. The ratio is like 25:1 at least. Plus, the import that is broken down is always like a 1986 626, where as the domestic its an 2004 GTP or Cavi. Now I don't consider trucks into this, because until recently there hasn't really been a large enought import truck out there that would directly compare to domestics, so it's not a fair comparson.

We have to stop blindly buying into this junk about imports being garbage and the domestics are the better choice. You know, if GM had it's shit together I would totaly keep my money with them. But my first cars were domestics, now I have an import, one of the best choices I've made. The other thing is now the Japs have all kinds of factories over here. So, you can't even preach cheap labour anymore. Plus more of your money is staying here to support the local economy.

Lyle

[RednBlack]

Guys, fuck C&D, screw all the reviews. The car is a 4 million dollar piece of art. Period!
No one I know will ever have one, except at night, when they lay their little head down, and go sleepy by. I took it out at Watkins Glen just last night. I think tonight, I might do Talledega, just to turn it loose.

Did I mention that the same company also owns Fiat?

The Europeans are simply masters of speed, combined with grace. The reviews are also written by people that will never own the car.

And, when someone here drives one, let me know. It's just eye candy for us.

[prophiseer]

I only about 75% agree with L_GTP. I think part and partial alot of vehicle breakdowns are due to owner neglect. I will say that the imports can hold up to neglectful abuse a bit better, but when they break . . . they break, and take a major chuck of your wallet with it. The amount of distrbutors I've replaced on Honda's and Toyota's is a friggin joke, and these units are close to $350-$500 at shop cost. A customer walking into a parts store is prob looking at at least $500.

Domestics, though, I've about come to the conclusion that it just depends on the serial number run. I've heard people complain they're '97 whatever falls apart no matter how well they maintain it, and the you'll run across someone with exact same year, make, and model and have never had a problem with it. I have no idea why it's like this, but it just is. Maybe one factory shift is more lazy than the others, who knows? In comparison, I owned a '98 GASE (N-body, similar mechanical to a Malibu), and it currently has 178k miles on it and I've never had anything breakdown on me. Biggest mechanical fix was the water pump (Q4), but I was replacing it before it started pouring. Car ran like a dream and was getting better fuel mileage than any current gas powered import (41mpg highway). But alas . . . I hit a deer and totaled the body, and now the car rests in the driveway waiting for me to pull the motor and tranny as donor parts.

But then again, it works both ways. We have some customers that own imports and it only seems like we see the vehicles come into the shop on the back of a flatbed twice a year. Most are mid '90s Hondas and some later '90s Toyota's and Nissan's, but it does seem to run both ways.

And L_GTP, I know exactly what your talking about on the friggin 350, it's amazing how some are just utter 600lb turds and other's are indestructible.

[tijuana_no]

I Use Brainwash To Show My Feeling(wish Is Personal)like I Said ,and Not Directly To A Person As "crap".latter On That Reply It Explain Very Well My Feeling,a Very Well Written Reply ,wich I Agree More Than 75% Cause Was Written On Fact(almost Like If It Was Written Out A Mag.but I Know It Wasn't) Not Feeling,and You Can't Argue With Fact. And Like I Also Said I Love To See Guy's Get In The S**t.
I Have Never Own A Jap. Car Never Will I Have Even Turn Them Down As A Gift.i Have Own American And Bmw's. I Would Love A Ferrari,may Be Tonite With Eva Longoria ,on The Passanger Side.

[bszopi]

You asked for it, so GM gives it to you...

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=2&docid=28433

GM now has "the best warranty of any full-line automaker, with coverage up to 100,000 miles or five years". Oh, and it is fully transferable as well.