Interested in Fieros......

[Mach10]

You wouldn't be able to put tires big enough on the ground to hold more than 400 hp under pretty much any condition.

I have NEVER understood a statement like this, especially considering the fact that there are people running bottom nines and even high 8s on an 8" wide radial tire, that takes much more than 400HP, even in the lightest of cars.

I should probably clarify. I don't mean to imply that you can't FIT the tires, just that putting them on won't help you.

There's a few problems with putting drag radials on.

1) Strictly in terms of streetability, you would have to flare out the fenderwells, since 215 series tires are more-or-less in line with the body. Unless it's not illegal where you live.

2) When you drop the clutch at 4000rpm, something has to give. Generally that's the tires, clutch, or combination of both. With a high-horse motor, and a solid clutch, something after the pressure plate has to give. With sticky radials, you will destroy the transmision or one of the axles. I've seen pics of both; The trans case splits open and shits out the differential, or the axles shear off at the tripods.

So, I stand by my statement. The car will NOT survive long at 400hp unless you make concessions for a bit of "give" in the driveline, like not-so-hardcore tires.

[Doubt_Incarnate]

i think it depends on the torque of a 400hp motor, if it s a 400hp v8, its gonna die, if a 400hp 4 banger, its got a good chance at survival.

i read turboz24 can put down 430hp and he's been through a few trannies i heard. mostly axels but i read his car doesnt like shifting around 7000rpm.

that why im saying a turbo eco-tec with a 5 speed would be a fun more longer living combo. 400hp 250ft/bs vs. 400hp 500ft/lbs, whats gonna torque the guts out first?

[Mach10]

I'm going to disagree.

The difference between a high-torque, and high-revving motor will just make the tranny fail at different points.

The high-torque motor will split the case off the line, for sure.

Thing is, a 400hp 4banger is going to be shifting somewhere around 8-9000rpm. The transmissions do NOT like shifting at that speed. Expect the syncros to give you the finger and let you experience the rapture that is shearing off gear-teeth.

Not to mention the fact that the components will already be weaker from the MUCH higher internal temperatures.

Honestly, I'd rather blow a tranny off the line. Having a gearset come apart with a 9000rpm input shaft speed gives me shivers. I'd rather not be drooling and mumbling shakespearean poetry as the paramedic pulls a shift-rail out of the back of my head, thanks!

But then, who am I kidding?

Let's be honest: Fiero owners are cheap bastards. ALL of them. Me included. After building a $10,000 400hp engine, the SMART thing would be to put a REAL transaxle in the back (porshe, Subaru, Honda/Acura) and make it work properly. Something with a proven track record of handling these loads.

But then, we wouldn't be Fiero owners.

Fieros are cool cars, but they seem to attract the kind of person who builds a $400,000 house and puts it on a dirt foundation. There's a lot of insecurity and pretension in the Fiero community. As was stated above, drama.

Naturally I'm skeptical of the aspirations of a 400hp Fiero. Everyone and their dog who owns a Fiero swears up and down they'll do this... And honestly? Most of them don't even bother with an engine swap. Just a set of useless shorty headers, and they get discouraged and go back to bickering about which forum is better.

Hell, I built myself an honest-to-god 200hp Fiero. I've built 2 of 'em. I can't pretend to be an expert, and I'm enough of a pragmatist to have some idea of what's possible, but I'm enough of a realist to be honest about what is realistic.

There have been a couple 400hp Fieros made. And honestly? The amount of work that went into them, and the sheer amount of compromises that had to be made to support it quite honestly detract from making the Fiero a realistic platform.

The Fiero isn't a muscle car. The wheelbase is too short for sustained high-speeds. It's got excellent handling characteristics DESPITE (not because of) a parts-box suspension.

Why ruin that to make a 11s drag car when you can drop half the money to make a Camaro go that fast?

To each their own, but I revel in making the Fiero what it COULD have been when GM designed it. I don't dwell on making it something it really isn't.

Excuse the long posts... I'm at work, and I'm bored out of my tree.

[Guest]

You wouldn't be able to put tires big enough on the ground to hold more than 400 hp under pretty much any condition.

I have NEVER understood a statement like this, especially considering the fact that there are people running bottom nines and even high 8s on an 8" wide radial tire, that takes much more than 400HP, even in the lightest of cars.

I should probably clarify. I don't mean to imply that you can't FIT the tires, just that putting them on won't help you.

There's a few problems with putting drag radials on.

1) Strictly in terms of streetability, you would have to flare out the fenderwells, since 215 series tires are more-or-less in line with the body. Unless it's not illegal where you live.

2) When you drop the clutch at 4000rpm, something has to give. Generally that's the tires, clutch, or combination of both. With a high-horse motor, and a solid clutch, something after the pressure plate has to give. With sticky radials, you will destroy the transmision or one of the axles. I've seen pics of both; The trans case splits open and shits out the differential, or the axles shear off at the tripods.

So, I stand by my statement. The car will NOT survive long at 400hp unless you make concessions for a bit of "give" in the driveline, like not-so-hardcore tires.

But your statement was strictly about the tires being big enough to hold the power, my point was that you don't need large tires to hold several hundred HP. An 8" tire will fit under the back of a fiero, you just need to use the right offset and I believe you need to space the strut inboard and use a smaller diametr spring. I had an article on a GMPP Fiero from '88, that ran 11s or so with a DOHC Super Duty head on an Iron Duke bottom end. The Head was supposed to come out as an aftermartket Pontiac Offering, but I don't beleive it was ever actually released.

Now you're changing your story to the driveline will break, granted it probably will, but why didn't you say that in the first place, instead of making some bogus statement about tires? Also you're assuming that the driveline will be completly stock, I'd hope that anyone that actually wants to put a 400 HP engine in thier Fiero would be smart enough to realize that there will be other changes needed, otherwise, they should leave the wrenches in the tool box.

[Mach10]

I already appologized for not being clear. I didn't change my story at all.
I said:
You wouldn't be able to put tires big enough on the ground to hold more than 400 hp under pretty much any condition.

My wording isn't very good. But then again, I wasn't trying to teach a physics lesson either. For 99% of the population it's understood that bigger tires means grippier. Obviously there are other factors, tread type, composition etc etc etc. Besides, I said "Put" not "fit." The meanings are not implicitly or explicitly the same. But that's just bandying words.

I then corrected myself by admitting that yes, physical size doesn't necessarily matter. I then elaborated saying that the primary concern (besides fitment/legality) was the increased shock load on the drivetrain.

We don't need to stoop to bandying words to have an intelligent conversation. Yet again, I appologize if I didn't make my meaning clear. I don't know what else you want me to say? That I'm wrong, that you can put a set of MT 18" drag radials on it, hop the front in the air 30" and have it live for a dozen pulls? I'm sure we're not going to argue about the strength of the 282 (and to a slightly lesser extent the 284)

I enjoy arguing in the form of discussion, but I thought I had addressed my point enough before.

As for having a stock tranny behind a 400hp motor? Dude... Do you KNOW any fiero owners?

Anything can be done if you put the time, money, and effort into it. .

*edit*

Some of the points in your post were covered in my previous post... Repeating them would just make me even MORE long-winded than usual

[El_Diablo]

well the trans would deffinetly be replaced, i have already heard about how weak they are, im looking for a manual to have a lil fun with BTW

not quit sure what i could fit in there thoug... ive heard things about an NSX trans, anyone know anything? all i have really found are the tranmissions offered by west coast fieros and thats a bit much when paired with an engine swap

anyone know other options?

[Mach10]

For the truly insane, there has been work done with a logitudinal tranny like the Toronado trans. Big, heavy, beefy mo-fo.

Won't have a trunk after that, though.

Other than that, any kind of swap should in theory work if you're willing to weld your own engine mount brackets, and if you can make the bellhousing work.

Again, I don't know that many Fiero owners that will spring for $10 brake fittings... Let alone transmission R&D

[El_Diablo]

well usually i say i may be crazy but atleast im not insane, but in this case......... lol



anyways, ive heard a FWD caddie trans will work but does anyone know if the bell housing will work or if it can be adapted to a SBC?

[El_Diablo]

well usually i say i may be crazy but atleast im not insane, but in this case......... lol



anyways, ive heard a FWD caddie trans will work but does anyone know if the bell housing will work or if it can be adapted to a SBC?

[Mach10]

I've heard rumors that the LS4 uses a FWD Gm tranny.

Almost all GM FWD bellhousings will fit, with a few exceptions. And even most of these exceptions center around clearancing the bellhousing for the starter nose.


There really is no good way to put a small-block in front of (beside?) a GM FWD manual tranny.

There have been a few decent FWD autos made that will at least come close to handling the power (see LS4 in the FWD impala).

You're basically SOL for the manual, unless you want to pay to have the gears treated (or even better... Straight-cut with dog-rings... Mmmmmm).

The WCF Version of the NSX tranny wouldn't be bad... The japanese manuals do tend to hold up better, but again, they were designed to shift clean at high-revs with high power. Not swallow the massive torque-loads of a manual v8.

[El_Diablo]

i really want a manual but i know im prolly not going to get away with a stock trans no matter what i use

how much do you think a rebuild of the stock manual trans would be?

[Mach10]

Depends on the tranny.

Synchros are $100 a pop for both the 4spd Saginaw and 4-speed Muncie, plus $200-some odd bucks for bearings and seals etc. The other trannies would likely be in the same range.

[El_Diablo]

hmmm..... im looking to spend maybe 2-3 grand max on a tranny build


what would you recomend?

[Mach10]

FInd a half-dozen getrag or muncies, and keep 'em on standby.

I'm reconditioning my M19 insofar as seals and outer bearings are concerned. If it cacks, I'll just buy a junkyard one...

[El_Diablo]

like i said, this is going to be my toy if im able to do this..... i dont want to be working on it all the time doing maintenance

the only work on it will be to make it faster and look better, i dont wanna be doing a major overhaul everytime i rag on it

maybe i should just go with an auto and build it up after all