On a softer note; Hydrogen Generation!!!!!!

[Juglenaut]

Read it, know it, research it, and build it.

Concept of noble medium compound cold fusion.

I tested my small model, and it works nicely. Propane powered engines can be converted easy.

12-24 volt battery, water, and salt, converted propane engine tuning a 120/240 15kw generator that charges the battery though a DC charger. Water is the only byproduct so you can catch it and reintroduce it. Think circle.

I found other aaaa published info, but you'd have to do your own research, and buld it yourself.

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/water.html

[Doubt_Incarnate]

hydrogen cars scare me, all it would take is one idiot, and a car topped off to make it a big problem for the rest of the country

[OldSkoolGP]

More info, please! That page opens, but none of the diagrams seems to

[firechiken]

hydrogen cars scare me, all it would take is one idiot, and a car topped off to make it a big problem for the rest of the country

Why is everyone afraid of hydrogen? You're already driving around with 15-40 gallons of gasoline in your car, for pete's sake.

[Doubt_Incarnate]

hydrogen is more explosive. thats why there isn an "H" bomb, and not a "gasoline" bomb

[Q]

Take 1

[Q]

Your "circle" left something out ... the 120VAC plug that hooks up to the grid so you can power your disassociation stage. Check out your high-school chemistry book. It takes 78 joules to separate water into H2 and o2 molecules. The heat released when combining them back together is .... 78 joules. In a perfect world. In the real world, though, you have losses and efficiencies. (Or lack thereof.) You'll need a constant source of power to overcome the losses. The ONLY reaon to ever consider Hydrogen as a fuel for an IC engine is to lower emissions.

And the reason we have a "hydrogen" bomb is because most people can't prononunce Deuterium and Tritium. There is no "burning" of hydrogen going on in one of these what-so-ever. Don't they teach anything in phsyics anymore?

And we DO have gasoline bombs. Hollywood LOVES them. And Napalm is mostly gasoline and sticky stuff. (Naphthaline ... think of gelled moth balls.) They just don't pack the power of most plastic explosives found in the usual bombs.

[Doubt_Incarnate]

And the reason we have a "hydrogen" bomb is because most people can't prononunce Deuterium and Tritium. There is no "burning" of hydrogen going on in one of these what-so-ever. Don't they teach anything in phsyics anymore?

never made it that far, did HS and celebrated never having to be stuck in a class again.

[Juglenaut]

No hydrogen when in mixed with atmosheric oxygen is just as flammable as propane.

It is a one to one ratio that involves free fuel, water.. As long as it rains it free...also remember that reintroduction thing water can be reused over and over and over.

Read the editorial again if you don't understand...

The process might be less than 100% but remember again that water can be replaced easy. 78 joules in nothing really when in a combustion engine the HP produced is more than enough to produce enough energy to keep the cycle going. The inefficiency is shown in the reduction of water in the tank, how effcient the propane engine is is reflected the same way, just as a car gets 29MPG compared to a SUV that get 12MPG, inefficiencies will use more fuel.

78 joules=18.6 calories!!!

You would never have to store liquid hydrogen, made on demand.

This editoial is text only, no diagrams.

I already made a mini torch that is operational from a 12 volt battery only, and it was hot enough to burn through a aluminum can.


The H-bomb is a completly different thing and totally different chemicals, and never once did I say the word huge fireworks.

BTU hydrogen=61k per pound liquid, 320BTU gasous per cubic foot or 80k calories per cubic ft, to create 50 CM3 per min I used less than 1 amp at 10ish volt.
BTU Gasoline ranges from 78k to 124k per Gallon or about 18k per pound liquid or less.
BTU Ethanol 75k to 84k per gallon

It gets really hard to explain, I am not sure what the BTU of gasoline is in vaporstate or gasous state.

Where the push is when hydrogen burns, it rapidly expands more so than gasoline so less compression is required, but you can keep the stroke length. It does only create 78 joules of heat in exchange per atom but the expansion is alot more than most all fossile fuels at the compound level. It is not the heat that is the best aspect of hydrogen....73% efficiency sounds good to me. Also you can devise away to use the heat that is produced to heat something like ahhh your house, this would make it even more efficient.

I am starting small, and if things works out I will have free heat and AC next year, or atleast AC.

Huhh, last time I check into it gasoline engines are grossly inefficient, like 30-40%.

I really don't care if you believe it or not, scared like a pooye little dog with its tail between the legs, run then to the big oil guys and pay up and keep thinking that way, but just know that I am researching this more now than ever.

Okay for starters:

http://www.hionsolar.com/n-heq1.html

http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/Hydrogendata.html

http://www.4hydrogen.com/directory.html

Good read:

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/

[Juglenaut]

the 120VAC plug that hooks up to the grid so you can power your disassociation stage

Care to explain why I would need to plug it into the grid, when I can run it from the generator. You would only want DC to get pure Hydrogen.

Also the key is to vent off oxygen and keep only the hydrogen, which means two different structures to keep the gases from mixing.

Typo* 78 joules per molecule

[Q]

Sure. I'll use small words for you, too.

Also ... please understand that I am lauging at you and anyone else that reads that "editorial" and takes it seriously.

It takes 78 Joules to break the bond between the Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms in a molecule of water. (Actually, the number does not matter. It can be any number. What you get is a certain amount of Hydrogen bubbles and Oxygen bubbles for whatever energy content you add.)

When you get Hydrogen molecules and Oxygen molecules close enough to bond them back into water, a small amount of energy is released. That small amount is 78 Joules for each molecule you create. It takes EXACTLY as much energy to make water as it does to break it. However, the laws of thermodynamics tell us that even this is all but theoretical. That's before you even try to get any work out of it!!

So far ... do you understand that?

Now, in a state-of-the-art system that converts mechanical energy (from the revolving motor that "burns" the hydrgen) into electricity (needed to separates the Hydrogen from the Oxygen in water) there is a factor called "efficiency." No matter how good your system is, it won't be anywhere near 100% That means you will have to add energy to the system in order to sustain it. And that "excess" heat you're thinking about ... does not exist.

But ... hey, don't let me stop you from building it. I'm sure you are a lot smarter than I am, and you can overcome all of the real-world problems. In fact, I encourage you to build it. Keep very accurate records of everything you do, how you do it and how much it costs you. Please! Don't give up ... until you're broke.

[Manitcor]

for the orignal post: prepetual motion/energy is a fools dream, you would be better off first inventing an inter dimensional portal to possibly find a place where the laws of physics are different then building your machine there

for the hydro nay-sayers: hydrogen is actually no more dangerous than propane as was posted earlier. Many people point to the hindenburg: this craft did not use gas bags, had an alunimum airframe and exposed copper wire running through the length of the vessel to power various systems. Im surprised it didnt go up sooner than it did honestly.

The H-bomb comment is just silly, no hydrogen based power system is based around actually splitting or fusing hydrogen atoms.

All that said, hydrogen like most other fuels are simply carriers of stored energy and in order to give them that energy it takes more than just the power you intend to store so fuel production is always a loosing matter. The most popular method for obtaining hydrogen is through the use of solar energy as that is given to us for free however it is quite limited.

Further as cool as hydrogen is it would/will be 50 years or so before we even see this become actually wide spread for the plain and simple fact of lack of infrastructure. There is research in the works to store hydrogen in pellet form (much like the concept used in pebbel bed nuculear reactors but less complex) however this is years away from acutal use.

Your best bet for cheap energy at this point are bio fuels which while require alot of energy to produce much of it is thrown away right now so its a good idea to take advatnage of it. Get your self an old VW rabbit or something and then either get 2nd gas tank and use fryer oil and such to power your diesel. Or get a bio-diesel production kit (these run about $2500 for a basic setup) and make your own bio-diesel.

[Juglenaut]

Perhapse what you looked over is the fact that a whole stage of mass state change takes place as where liquid is to steam when boiled, heat of evaporization...Yes this came into mind several times in my youth...The great idea of running locomotives on steam intrigued me. The fact that vaporous water takes up volume or lack of it.... It is not the prepetual or cause of detonation in fact it is the opposite where an implosion is needed. Where the vapor state change would cause compression then imploding giving 2 stokes of power

yes when hyrogen is burned, water forms in vaporstate. This alone shows that the BTU required to move 1 cubic foot of watervapor when water is at boiling point is more than disassociating h2 and o and burning it into vaporstate.

There is always down time, if down time exsist when energy is not used then the time can be used to generate stored fuel, down time can be lessen by implementing different energy recuperation techniques.
Yes the more Kcal per mole you put in, that amount is released as heat when burned as per hydrogen properties in the likely hood of forming diatomically drops uniformly as more energy is introduced into its disassocation from oxygen.

[weisinator]

Hydrogen is not free as has been shown. You don't take a hose and pour it into your fuel tank and that's it, you still need energy input. Refining petroleum is currently cheaper than generating hydrogen.

Someone did some calculating: if the USA dropped petroleum (for transportation) entirely and switched to hydrogen using current technology, the USA's electric power grid would have to handle 4x as much power as it currently makes. We like to drive in this country, that much is certain. This just illustrates how much we like to drive.

Hydrogen cars, unless there's some huge breakthrough in hydrogen extraction, are a pipe dream.

I did read about a guy who converted an old AMC Concorde to generate hydrogen in a PVC tube (+12v and ground on either side of the partitioned chamber) and had the resulting "fuel" injected to his carb through an A/C compressor. Just fill the tube with some water and a bit of sulphuric acid and replace the electrodes every few thousand miles. Doubled his fuel economy. I dunno how much of the story is real, but it is interesting to think about.

I'm for ethanol. E85 is only 75% as efficient as E10, making it a wash in terms of personal fuel costs, but it's one less nail in the coffin, so to speak.

[Lyle's GTP]

hydrogen cars scare me, all it would take is one idiot, and a car topped off to make it a big problem for the rest of the country

Well here is a plus. Say you get in an accident and some how the hydrogen tank ruptures. But it is pressurized so it ALL leaks out and very quickly since it's the lightest molecule known it just floats away.

However with a gasoline car, the tank ruptures starts spilling gas, slowly and you have a huge puddle, a very explosive puddle just sitting their. A fuse if you will, just looking for a light, so it can start it's trapped owner on fire.

Actually their is a funny storey that happend here in Edmonton last year. This tractor tariler is driving along, and bam one of it's break linings breaks loose and hits the road. The car driving behind it hits it. So the car stops and so does all the traffic behind it. This happened on a bridge by the way. So, turns out this cars fuel tank splits open from the debis and starts leaking. As it leaks out it leaks back down the road under 4 cars who are totaly boxed in. Next thing you know it ignites, then it burns the first car and the 4 cars behind it to the ground.

Lyle