Highbrid cars

[Lyle's GTP]

OK, I want your opinions about the issue of the new "hybrid" cars. I think they are they are the dumbest fucking thing around. They have proven expensive and also unreliable, having a barrage of problems with the drivetrain.

Now for those of you who know about hybrids and how they work I will keep this brief. when you use a generator to produce electricity you do not get the same amount of energy generated as you put in. (power loss) Next, when you charge batteries with this energy, not all the energy put into the batteries get's stored do to resistance of the battery. (powerloss) Next, you don't get all the energy out of a battery that was stored originally due to internal resistances. (powerloss)

So, by using your engine to generate electricity then store it in batteries to be used later you are less efficient than a direct drive vehicle. (in my opinion) Now I don't honestly think that these highbrids are as great as they are made out to be. Like seriously, these cars are small and lack power. So, I have heard that VW Jetta TDI's and other ultra compacts are getting just as good of milage as these hybrids.

I feel that they have complicated the drive train, making it more unrelible and more expensive to buy and also to work on. I think that the only good thing about these cars is that they are using the generator to apply braking force to the car, in turn, turning wasted energy into stored, usable energy. However using highbrid techology in a conventional car this energy could be used to charge the vehicals battery allowing for the alternator, to supply less of the energy needed.

I have done some research on this and I believe that the an idea was to mount a large diameter electric motor/generator some where between the engine and transmission next to the flywheel/ring gear. This would act as the starter motor for the car as well as the alternator to supply the electrical energy to the car. With this system coupled properly, you could easily use the deceleration force to charge the vehicals battery. we already do this when we down shift in a manual tranmission, but rather than generate electricity you are mearly saving you brakes.

Along with this system, they were also looking to convert the vehicals electrical system to 46 volts to allow for more efficient operation and reduced wire requirments.

So, let me here your thoughts on these issues.

[dbtk2]

I think they are really stupid as well. Just look at the price! What are you saving? You would have to drive it until the wheels fall off (which might not be too long) to get any "savings" out of it due to the surcharge you are paying upfront, not to mention the maintenance. And what do you gain? Helping the environment....if you want to do that, go buy a civic or something (not a hybrid civic), they are much cheaper, have great emissions and get good mileage....not only that but they are MUCH quicker. Which brings up another problem I have with hybrids, how can it even be safe to drive something that takes 13 seconds to go 60mph??? If my car were that slow, I would never be able to pull out into traffic, let alone merge onto the freeway. I have a hard enough time merging on the freeway now, I couldn't imagine trying to do it in a car that takes 7 seconds longer to hit 60 than mine. Thats just my opinion. I would never own one, thats for sure, unless of course someone gave it to me and I didn't have to pay for any of the maintenance, and even then I don't think I could stand to drive it often. IF you want one, go out and buy one, I won't stop you, I just think they are a pretty stupid invention/idea/whatever you want to call it.

Shawn

[bszopi]

Depends on your definition of "hybrid". There are CNG/gasoline hybrid, which I think are better than standard cars. But the electric hybrids are gay.

[Lyle's GTP]

I'm totaly talking about the gas/electric hybrids. What I would really like to figure out is power to weight ratio in several ultra compacts. Because seriously, what if you halfed the HP of a Civic? You would get a much better fuel economy, right. I truely do feel that this is just an expensive marketing ploy to get the enviro concious guys to buy the "technologically advanced" hybrid. I think they are just putting a rediculously small power plan into an even more rediculously light car and saying it's a techno-miracle on wheels. So, if you took the same body and dropped the same output, deisel or gasoline power plant into it. I bet you top dollar it gets better fuel ecomony. Why?, you ask because that bank of batteries has to weigh a shit load, not to mention the electric generator/engine must weigh a bunch as well.

Fucking engineers, just give me the hydrogen fuel cell and stop fucking around. Then I'll see you boys with my GTP at the track on the weekends. BOOYAH!!!!

[sharkey]

well, im betting there was this same conversation going on back a couple years after the first cars came out, except people wanted to stick with their horse drawn buggy instead of the "horseless cairage".

yes i think current hybrids are a joke, but you have to start somewere. im sure in 20 years they will perfect it and will work fine.

gm does have their new hybrid truck out. basicly, there is a big electric motor inside the bellhousing. the wingings are mounted on the bellhousing and the magnets are part of the torque converter. the motor is used as your starter and alternator, and can be used as a generator for 110 and 220 volt ac current. the truck uses a 46 volt electrical system. the truck uses the electric motor to accelerate from a stop and then the gas motor (i think its a 4.3l vortec) takes over. the tranny is a modified 4l60e. it has an electric fluid pump in it to keep the tranny "running" when the motor isnt turning when the vehicle is stopped.

[bszopi]

Just because we haven't had a presidential discussion lately, and the debates start tonight... I found this John Kerry commercial transcript on Fox News:

JOHN KERRY: We're the country that invents the future and it's time for America to invest in new technology. Alternative fuels and the cars of the future so we can make ourselves independent of Mideast oil in the next ten years. Our freedom and independence are at stake. I want an America that relies on its own ingenuity and innovation, not the Saudi royal family. I'm John Kerry and I approved this message because no young American should be held hostage to our dependence on Mideast oil.

Alternative fuels... Or an alternative to fuels? So, if you don't like the new hybrid cars, I wouldn't vote for Kerry.

[RednBlack]

I agree on the part about being independent from the Saudis. But if we use that technology on our home soil, there is plenty of oil here. We are just supporting OPEC due to the Large kickbacks the foreign oil companies receive by selling oil to the so called US companies, which aren't US at all. The only thing US about them are some of the patsy American executives that hold the office simply to get rich and give the Real owners a foothold. And I just can't see John Kerry riding in a Limo Hybrid. Personally,...I like gas. (Petroleum Distilled type) Here is some very interesting news about oil.. http://www.publicintegrity.org/oil/report.aspx?aid=382 Actually the whole site is cool, but don't go there unless you like to read.

[Lyle's GTP]

Well, it has to go to alternative fuels. Because this planet isn't going to take this pollution much longer. Not to mention how limited oil is, the real numbers are really scary. Apparently the worlds recoverable oil/gas reserves are gone in less than 45 years, and that's at the current rate of consumption. If you think about it, that number could be drastically reduced if we continue to push aside alternative fuel sources and keep burning Dino-Juice.

What we ALL need to do, is invest some cash into Hydrogen recovery from water, and in 10 years we will all be millionaires. I don't understand why we are fucking the dog on that one. Doesn't make much sense really, lets go for one of the least abundant global resourses, instead of the most abundant one??? Lets face it, there is enough hydrogen in a gob of my spit to blow-up your house, sounds like a good idea to me.

The hydrogen fuel cell is the way to go, these cars are working and are being fleet tested as we speak. The only problem is making hydrogen commercialy available as a fuel. That one will take some serious beaurocratic boot-fucking. If you look at it from an economic perspective, if we played our cards right the loss of jobs should be minimal. Because we will need people to work in hydrogen plants, distribution, etc, etc. Not to mention, the development and production of a new line of plant/animal based lubricants to sustain the machinery running on hydrogen.

It's a whole other world of possiblilities. One where passing emissions tests is a thing of the past. One where we don't have to hack up a lung, every time when a 1982 Honda Accord drives by, billowing out plumes of thick, toxic smoke.

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but it is ALL possible.

Lyle

[bszopi]

I don't think its really the oil people who are the ones behind the whole making money thing. I'd have to say its the US auto manufacturers that continue to make big, fuel-consuming SUVs that people just "have to have". If the auto makers stopped making gas gusslers, then oil depletion would be less of a worry. But why would they want to do that when they make $60k per vehicle? Not to mention all the aftermarket companies making crap for the SUVs as well. Because you know, every SUV MUST have the newest $2k+ 24" rims....

[geoffinbc]

Hybrids are a stop gap solution. Fuel cells are a better idea but still crap.

WE NEED BETTER BATTERIES. Pure and simple. Electric motor are over 90% efficient. If we can make a battery properly then be aware of that car next to you that doesn't sound like it is running. Because with 100% torque avalible from 1 RPM to 50,000 RPM (or more) he will hand you your ass along with your 660.

[RebelGT]

bio diesel is teh win

[geoffinbc]

Yea for the time being I agree. Desiel is more efficient than gas. Plus bio desiel smells good

[kanchou]

you're forgetting, part of the point is to reduce emmission. Increasing efficiency is one way.

When you can get 60mpg and you're a hybrid, you're emitting less waste than the same gas car thats getting 60mpg.

I think hybrid technology is just as important to keep researching.

[Lyle's GTP]

Yeah, but the efficiency issue is what I'm talking about. You can't get something for nothing. Like I said in my earlier post. How can generating power storing it in batteries, and then discharging it through an electric motor be more efficient than just direct driving that same engine? The whole idea is like cold fusion.

Lyle

[geoffinbc]

But you can charge the batteries with renewable resources. Wind, hydro or solar power could charge your batteries.

And no motor is more efficient than an electric one.