Questions about h2o/meth inj kits

[TGP37]

Anyone suggest a specific boost cooler for these motors? I see Snow Performance and AEM have a GM MAF calc for progressive spray. I think the universal, top of the line kit is too much.....or is it worth the money?

Or am I better off getting a basic kit with boost reference and a steady injection rate across the boost range?


I want to spray before and after the turbo compressor. Which leads another question....will any of these kits support multiple injection or would that require a pump upgrade?


Knock suppression is a good thing on hyper pistons (yes, this is a non-forged piston turbo build)




I suppose I could just say, "anyone have any suggestions?"

[caffeine]

I got a used snow stage 3 kit for $360 shipped. I'll be trying it out soon and it can inject based on boost, injector pulse width, or both.

It supports dual nozzles if you buy the dual nozzle kit as well

[caffeine]

Forums like nasioc are great for for finding second hand universal turbo parts btw.

[TGP37]

Thanks, I'll look that up.

I wouldn't mind a used meth injection kit. Some things are just hellish expensive brand new......like a quality electronic boost control unit. GReddy Profec B is one I'm looking at. The more I can save, the more I can get

[unchained01]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=937176

This is a great article for what your looking for

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

And here is a great cheap kit

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-Methanol-Alcohol-Injection-Kit-with-compact-trunkmount-tank-complete-/121060483390?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c2fc4613e&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-Snow-Performance-Boost-Cooler-Water-Methanol-Safe-Injection-/230921551078?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35c3ff3ce6&vxp=mtr

[TGP37]

Many thanks unchained, I was looking around and found Aquamist Injection systems. A bit pricey but wow they look nice. Noting they are the only PWM controlled injection system I can find.

What I thought was slick is the distribution manifolds and fittings. It would make a really cool looking install.



For a perfectionist, this is a nice product considering the accuracy of h20/meth injection ratio to fuel.

I just might consider a home brew using some parts from Aquamist. Heck, I'd use those distribution manifolds as boost/vac port for other apps.

[unchained01]

Your welcome !! AleroB88 (Greg) has a write up for a meth injection system using parts gotten from Lowes and a few other places I cant remember if its on here or not but it is posted on GAGT with pics

[TGP37]

I'll look that up.

Now that you mention it, I have a flare kit and lots of stainless steel line. I could build a system using brake line and fittings I have around the garage. That would be cool looking and handle pressure very well. Would be sturdy for sure.

My primary concern is detonation suppression, though temp reduction spraying into the compressor is tempting. But that takes a recirculation valve instead of BOV and the MAF pre-turbo. Making the IAT out of place either way. Or run SD.....

I only need roughly 120cc at onset and progress to 180cc injected. Triggering at 4-5psi and max at 12psi.

Which is 12% per fuel by weight. With a 5 gallon tank, a fill should last a while.


Not sure if I should pull timing or open a wg if the injection fails/runs dry.

[TGP37]

Just thought of this......these manifolds have two ports so a boost referrenced FPR could be used to adjusts the water pressure. Creating a feedback loop to control pressure like the fuel system. Then both systems would adjust pressure in-sync according to manifold pressure changes. Kind of like balancing the ratio injected mechanically versus electronically. And be able to inject per runner.


Even though the fuel is PWM and the spray is constant, the change in manifold pressure is the same on both systems which only distorts the measured amount.

But this means the reservoir needs a return line. At this point a fuel cell might be an interesting reservoir idea....no aluminum of course.

[AleroB888]

The key ingredient for these devices is the nozzle tip, just as with fuel injectors. The degree of atomization is all-important, imo. After that, it's the quality of the pump, and location of the nozzle. I believe someone suggested that open-loop tuning was needed for the PCM to avoid the problem of its compensating for the extra fuel, I don't have any experience with that. If you can find a high-quality replacement nozzle somewhere, you could probably make your own kit.

[TGP37]

Open Loop is right up my alley.....tuning is no problem. Have an HPT and can use a DHP when needed for Tinytuner tables.

How about this tip?

What concerns me about a custom build is the ability to progressively control the flow. Which makes a kit really tempting.

I'm thinking about tapping the plenum about 1 inch past the goofy PCV port and spray in the neck of the plenum from directly above.

[AleroB888]

Open Loop is right up my alley.....tuning is no problem. Have an HPT and can use a DHP when needed for Tinytuner tables.

How about this tip?

What concerns me about a custom build is the ability to progressively control the flow. Which makes a kit really tempting.

I'm thinking about tapping the plenum about 1 inch past the goofy PCV port and spray in the neck of the plenum from directly above.

The style of nozzle ranges from a simple pinhole, which requires way more pressure for atomization, to styles with internal channels and plates. I disassembled a few old-time spray bottles and found many ingenious variations. The more complex, the more difficult to machine.

I would start with a manual switch and watch what happens in the scans for different spray rpm and duration.

Flowrate and spray patterns are easy enough to test.

[unchained01]

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a40/Where-Do-I-Position-My-Water-Methanol-Injection-Nozzles/article_info.html

AND

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/nozzle-selector.php

[TGP37]

I'm liking the Devilsown kits. They seem to have great reviews by many who use it. And they seem to have the highest psi pump out there at 250psi.

I have read it is possible to spray into the compressor while having the MAF downstream and not mess up it's flow readings. Often stated it needs to be done properly but hardly mentions what exactly improper is.

I think it is nothing more then atomization, having no leaks/drips and the proper flow amount. The obvious stuff.


I do believe spraying into the compressor at 10% and into the plenum at 15% (% of fuel weight delivered) would do well for what I want.

I think aiming the nozzle directly at the compressor blade center (the nut) would be best to deliver the water/meth mist evenly into the blades to prevent damage. Just don;t want that nozzle flying into the compressor, lol, that would suck.

[TGP37]

I got an interesting question for you guys......

Not considering cost, what is ideal for best atomization?

1- port* injection with 6x 63ml nozzles
2- throttle injection w/ 1x 380ml nozzle

* injected in the plenum runner or LIM runner?

I think I can get some low profiles in there near the injectors. Though tapping the runners on the plenum is way easier and might look badass.