How not to post on this forum

[bszopi]

Huh?

Either way, Dave speaks his mind on any topic and he surely knows what he is talking about. You are silencing someone when you ban them and delete their post. Banning is one thing because you don't like their attitude on the forums, deleting posts is a whole different subject.

Let me break it down for you... YOU wanted to have a CIVIL discussion. Guy comes on and is uncivil. He gets a warning. He continues to be uncivil, therefore he gets banned. Simple enough. I blame his ban on your request.

Honestly, if I were Mike, and I found out that someone is talking trash on my behalf, I would be here trying to do damage control. I personally wouldn't want anyone like that representing me.

[ForcedFirebird]

A little introduction of myself. I do work with the shop the MMS shares a building with. We mainly work on import turbo applications. I'm a Mechanical Engineer for Honda of America. I graduated with a BS in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Dayton. I've owned a few 400+ Rwhp cars.

After reading through 11 pages of complete bullshit sputtered out of the mouth theories I've come to the conclusion that maybe 2 or 3 people on here at most have the slightest idea of what they're talking about. Of the people spouting off garbage ass garbage from the mouth, how many of you own fast cars? Truly fast cars, not some 14 second garbage. I haven't seen any of these WOT port jobs and I've seen a few of Milzy's port jobs. If you want a bad ass ported head take that shit to Dave Layer and let him go at them. You'll pay about 3 to 4x as much as either one of these companies being discussed. The heads aren't really what's keeping these motors from making massive power. The reason the "blue car" made such little power on such high boost is the turbo size. It was a 57 trim turbo, not a 57mm. I run a 60 trim on my 2.0 Litre. I think these cars having such large displacement need a 35r or something of the likes. The second problem with these setups, intake manifolds. Rule of thumb for boosted applications is plenum volume should be 1.5 to 2x the size of the displacement of the engine. I'm sure one or two of you on here can do the math in your head; for the rest, bust out the old trusty MS Calculator.

To WOT: Build a car as best you can. Tune it, and go to the track. MMS should do the same. Fuck which car makes the most power. Is this some gigantic pissing match? The only numbers that matter are the 1/4 mile numbers. I've beat 8xx whp cars with nearly half the power. Why? because my car is faster.

Oh wow, you must be quite a character in real life. We built a 12sec 60v6 YEARS before MMS did 12's in his car, and not only was it a street car, it was a Corssica with a big speaker box in it, 17" rims and street tires. While yes the turbo was probably too small on the MMS car, but guess what size was on the Corsica? lol.

In case you didn't notice, the 3500 plenum IS quite a bit larger larger than the engine displacement, but I guess someone fresh out of school wouldn't know that by looking at it. We have been wrenching, fabricating and racing since the early 90's (about when you were born), experience trumps education.

Apparently you missed the entire point of my rant. Fuck flow bench numbers, fuck dyno numbers, all that shit is arbitrary. The car that reaches point B first is the faster car. End of story. I could go on and on discussing flow theories and fluid dynamics and mechanics but porting stock heads is about as insignificant as a cold air intake. I'd be surprised to see more than a 20hp gain. I'm not sure what these heads flow like stock but regardless of who built what, I've yet to see any of these cars do anything impressive for as much displacement as they have.

Um, ok. I haven't seen anything impressive yet. Close friend of mine runs a 12.3 in his CAM ONLY pure stock eliminator 3800 powered Firebird.

If there wasn't 20hp to be had, then I guess when we chat with Vizzard, Brodix, AFR (Curtis) maybe they have been wasting the last 40yrs of their lives making the best flowing heads on any racing circuit.

As far as the 60v6 not having any power, it's funny that the latest generation is powering the 300hp 5th gen Camaro from 3.6liters.

I don't know if I said it before, but he has things to do outside of debating flow numbers on this forum. There are obvious reasons why Ben is here, his business grew out of these forums.

@dskopek:

Flow bench tests do tell you what cam is good to use...this is why MMS heads are paired with a named cam to work together.

Flow bench tests alone only tell you how good the heads flow, not how well the engine will run or how much horsepower the engine will make.

That's strange because the 3500 heads flow more than the 3400 heads stock for stock. All else being equal (except lower compression, mind you) the 3500 heads will make more power simply by flowing better. Even you have done the swap. If the MMS porting is so great, why not put his ported 3400 heads on your engine instead of the top end swap?

Seriously gentlemen !? I am glad this hasnt gone overboard (publicly anyway) and attitudes have been kept somewhat in check I for one believe that depending on the design of the head and the UIM and the LIM together Is where flow numbers, low lift multiangle valve jobs and the cylinder displacement actually put the rubber to the road. I suggest reading "How to Horsepwer Volume 1" by David Visard There is a very good section on head porting Its not about how much material is removed but where and making the valve guide protrusion in the port as aerodynamic as possible. You have to be careful beacuse hogging out the bowl area may not produce great results. In the UIM and the top of the head port , air like water has mass and inertia and will resist changing direction. which means airflow will tend to flow toward the "roof' on a sharp or short turn radius. and high swril numbers can actually can actually help performance and MPG at low engine speeds But at higher speeds actually interfere with the flame front and cause negative results and higher KR and lost econmy and performance Just my .02 I agree partially with the previous post but like other have tried to relate i think it needs to be coupled with the LIM and UIM as a whole for a complete representation of the impact of the benefits A motor gulps air and not in a linear fashion I am here to learn and help if i can & staying open minded

David Vizzard practically invented the flow bench. He often holds speeches on a site I was invited to, there are some big names there as mentioned above. They would have a good laugh at this thread after discussing engine dynamics. Most people reading their advanced engine forum would understand Chinese better.

[AaronGTR]

I for one don't think we need David back. This was a civil thread until that so called "honda engineer" got here... then it turned to shit. And I agree with Brad. If I where Milzy I wouldn't want a douche bag like that representing my shop. And that guy honestly had NO clue wtf he was talking about.

[SappySE107]

Seems easier to make an issue of me doing my job on the site and banning the troll than to tell me which is better for exhaust ports, larger, or better flow. The larger exit doesn't flow more, so to tell me MMS choses flow over velocity is dead wrong. He choses what looks good to noobs over what performs better. 228 whp from his stage 3 setup and my stage 2 made 222, with RSM manifolds. Cam selection goes in my favor though, as does porting. But lets see an MMS turbo cam get the same results my street/strip turbo cam has.

This thread is missing:

MMS Flow numbers
MMS Employees

[onefastV6]

Seems easier to make an issue of me doing my job on the site and banning the troll than to tell me which is better for exhaust ports, larger, or better flow. The larger exit doesn't flow more, so to tell me MMS choses flow over velocity is dead wrong. He choses what looks good to noobs over what performs better. 228 whp from his stage 3 setup and my stage 2 made 222, with RSM manifolds. Cam selection goes in my favor though, as does porting. But lets see an MMS turbo cam get the same results my street/strip turbo cam has.

This thread has:
SILENCE

No Flow Numbers From MMS
No Representation from MMS Employees

Fixed it for you....

And by the way "banning" and "silencing" someone are two very different things in my opinion.

[2.8/3400 1985 Camaro]

I like how the guy that got banned and was supposedly an engineer, thinks running 2 entirely different cars in two entirely different areas, possibly at different times of the year is an accurate way to compare port work..I LOLed IRL.
1/4 times are all that matters when you are arguing with your buddy his mustang vs your camaro, when it comes to something like who's porting is better, its all about the dyno. Anyone smart enough to be an engineer(car related or not) and know the first thing about car modifying would know this. Guess he skipped the day of science class where they talked about controls, and variables and such that affect test results.
And for the record I am impartial to this debate, I am not at all familiar with mms and only a little with ben. I am just curious who's porting would perform more, from what people are saying I get the impression ben's is, but I don't know enough about MMS to fairly speculate on it, without dyno #s from the same engine, or flow #s to compare there's no knowing for sure.

[pocket-rocket]

I like how the guy that got banned and was supposedly an engineer, thinks running 2 entirely different cars in two entirely different areas, possibly at different times of the year is an accurate way to compare port work..I LOLed IRL.
1/4 times are all that matters when you are arguing with your buddy his mustang vs your camaro, when it comes to something like who's porting is better, its all about the dyno. Anyone smart enough to be an engineer(car related or not) and know the first thing about car modifying would know this. Guess he skipped the day of science class where they talked about controls, and variables and such that affect test results.

He also forgot that power to weight ratios come in to play, as do chassis prep and setup since you can have a more powerful engine, but a poorly set up car and loose a race you should have won if you had set your chassis up correctly. Since this was a discussion on head porting, his "examples" basically meant nothing since power vs power is what we are after here, so it goes back to flow testing, engine and chassis dynos, not the drag strip. But, as an engineer, he knew that...

[2.8/3400 1985 Camaro]

Lol, pretty much, if I put mms heads on my 2700 lb corsica, and then put wot tech heads on something newer and heavier, probably 3k+, that's going to make a difference, as can suspension type, bushings, tires, inflation of tires, weight of driver, transmission type, condition of transmission, engine mileage and condition, rim size and weight etc etc. Unless you ran the same car, on the same day, on the same track you wouldn't get accurate results, and even if you did that they would still have uncontrolled variables mucking things up.

[AaronGTR]

I've seen his degree if that helps any

Not really, it doesn't. I'm not impressed just because people have degrees. Most colleges will give a degree to anyone who pays their tuition these days. Doesn't mean they got A's or that they are smart, or even know what they are talking about. That guy didn't talk like engineer, using logic and giving examples based on known principles. He talked like a 16 y.o. ricer with a bad attitude and a chip on his shoulder. If that's the kind of engineer Honda is hiring these days, it's no wonder I'm not impressed with them, and I'm not impressed with Milzy for hiring him either.


But enough about him... back to the interesting technical discussion.

[HOYS]

Not really, it doesn't. I'm not impressed just because people have degrees. Most colleges will give a degree to anyone who pays their tuition these days. Doesn't mean they got A's or that they are smart, or even know what they are talking about. That guy didn't talk like engineer, using logic and giving examples based on known principles. He talked like a 16 y.o. ricer with a bad attitude and a chip on his shoulder. If that's the kind of engineer Honda is hiring these days, it's no wonder I'm not impressed with them, and I'm not impressed with Milzy for hiring him either.


But enough about him... back to the interesting technical discussion.

No, not enough about him.

First, he does NOT work for Milzy. I think he stated that clearly enough. Dave is...for a lack of better words...his own man :P

I guess you shouldn't buy any new Honda with direct injection...because that is Dave's focus at Honda.

[bszopi]

He does seem pretty cool. I mean, check out his MySpace blurb...

About me:
I'm Dave.I'm a Mechanical Engineering Student at UD. I like vagina, boobs, and other womanly parts. Hit me up if you are DTF. "MSG is Chineese Jackass!"

I am confused about his job status, though. To quote his original post...

I do work with the shop the MMS shares a building with. We mainly work on import turbo applications. I'm a Mechanical Engineer for Honda of America.

So, does this mean that Honda of America shares a building with MMS? And Honda of America works on import turbo applications? And now, you say his focus is on direct injection in new Honda engines. Oh yeah, and according to his MySpace page, he makes over $250k/yr. Ok, so he just graduated from college (grad from HS in 2007), and right out of college is making a quarter of a million dollars working for Honda, out of a shop shared with MMS.

Really...?

[SappySE107]

"I don't know why man, but I believe him" - Half Baked

[HOYS]

He does seem pretty cool. I mean, check out his MySpace blurb...

I am confused about his job status, though. To quote his original post...



So, does this mean that Honda of America shares a building with MMS? And Honda of America works on import turbo applications? And now, you say his focus is on direct injection in new Honda engines. Oh yeah, and according to his MySpace page, he makes over $250k/yr. Ok, so he just graduated from college (grad from HS in 2007), and right out of college is making a quarter of a million dollars working for Honda, out of a shop shared with MMS.

Really...?

I'm not going to go into Dave's personal life on the internet, but he had graduated from The University Of Dayton and works for Honda in their Powertrain department. His side job is working for ForcedFab building drift cars. ForcedFab shares a building with MMS.

Who uses MySpace anymore Bszopi? C'mon

[bszopi]

I've never used it, but according to his page, he was last on it 2 days ago. So, I guess he does. ??

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[TGP37]

I've never used it, but according to his page, he was last on it 2 days ago. So, I guess he does. ??

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He got you man! Don't mess with the best.....WOT-TECH rules!