Uh Oh..."Weird Water".. Problem Down in Florida...

[60dgrzbelow0]

Several weeks ago, the "Lil Woman" cornered me at the Frig while I was grabbing a cold Diet Coke and held up a blue plastic colander drain sieve under my nose and frowned while saying, "Okay... 'Mister Know-It-All', What the Hell is THIS?" I could see some white residue on the thing after it had just been through a heavy dish-washing cycle, so I attempted to rinse the marks off with hot tap water. No go. Puzzled... I did the next logical thing and pulled out the bottom tray slide and lifted the plastic pre-wash screen out and removed all manner of pieces of broken plastic spoons, some cat hair and something that looked suspiciously like a wallet I lost last year.

Anyhoo.. with a high degree of confidence, I threw in some more dishes and blurted out with gusto, "Okay, Punkin' ...THAT should it...!" Forty-five minutes later... out came the dishes with even MORE of this impossible to remove stuff!! Sh*t! Next up... I looked at the latest box of the more expensive dish-washing powder I bought at Publix and pointed to it as the likely chemical culprit and so I switched to the residue of the cheaper stuff I had only just set aside and Voila! No go. This stuff would not budge even on the same set of dishes I had run through twice. Something else must have been involved.

Several Googles and a few days later... I found out what the real problem was. It seems as though the EPA has been on a binge to reduce or eliminate the contamination of ground and seaway water with Phosphates due to the algae blooms caused by what they called, "eutrophication" (over-enrichment with nutrients) as the main threat to water quality..." Okay so now that I knew what the problem was from the reduction of Phosphates in all cleaning materials, so I Googled up a suggestion from someone who simply took a coffee cup filled with Distilled Vinegar (also cheap and available by the gallon at Publix) and after washing the dishes since then, the almost permanent white deposits have been gradually eliminated from the dishes, the stainless steel silverware in particular, and most disgusting...from certain kinds of plastics. So if you live in Florida... or anywhere that this enforcement has been put into effect and the water is as "hard" as we have down here and suffer as we had in "cleaning" up this problem, try a cup of Distilled Vinegar on the Top Shelf of the Dish Washer and see if it cleans things up! ...or you can just install an expensive Water Softening Machine.

[bob442]

I have a similar problem, good stuff

[3400-95-Modified]

I was gonna say after your whole post that its simply mineral deposits from hard water which can be solved with a water softener/conditioner machine.

I'm ready to put in just a whole house filter, but right now that needs to be accessible to a drain to perform self cleaning and I do not have a drain where the water comes in so I'm still thinking on that one.

[RednBlack]

CLR

[60dgrzbelow0]

I was gonna say after your whole post that its simply mineral deposits from hard water which can be solved with a water softener/conditioner machine. I'm ready to put in just a whole house filter, but right now that needs to be accessible to a drain to perform self cleaning and I do not have a drain where the water comes in so I'm still thinking on that one.

Actually... the problem was more than the mere deposition of the usual calcium deposit stalagmites and stalactites that we have to use CRC and LimeAway to get off from time to time. There isn't much else down here in the way of other ferrous minerals or rusty water problems in the city water we get sent to the peninsula from Silver Springs and Zephyrhills via just a few four-foot pipes, This is just a particular problem that only recently reared its ugly head in the dishwasher and in conjunction with whatever dish-washing powder was being used... so it was well out of our normal experiences with the otherwise normal "hard" water.

The primary purpose of my post was meant to pass along the "Vinegar Trick" to those down here in Florida as the easiest manner to unf*ck their dinnerware. When I moved into my home back in 1989... there was already an in-dwelling water softener that, when taking showers...left me feeling like I had just taken a bath in warm motor oil. It was disgusting and creepy because you could not feel your own skin...and it never felt like you got clean while doing it. I ripped that nonsense hardware out and called. "Hey...Culligan Man!" to come and get his gear. So if I may offer a suggestion to you, Mr. Pink... unless you have showered in a home that has all this expensive water softening equipment and found it to your liking... try this idea out before you buy and install a complete system and discover it is not everything its cracked up to be.

[3400-95-Modified]

Actually... the problem was more than the mere deposition of the usual calcium deposit stalagmites and stalactites that we have to use CRC and LimeAway to get off from time to time. There isn't much else down here in the way of other ferrous minerals or rusty water problems in the city water we get sent to the peninsula from Silver Springs and Zephyrhills via just a few four-foot pipes, This is just a particular problem that only recently reared its ugly head in the dishwasher and in conjunction with whatever dish-washing powder was being used... so it was well out of our normal experiences with the otherwise normal "hard" water.

The primary purpose of my post was meant to pass along the "Vinegar Trick" to those down here in Florida as the easiest manner to unf*ck their dinnerware. When I moved into my home back in 1989... there was already an in-dwelling water softener that, when taking showers...left me feeling like I had just taken a bath in warm motor oil. It was disgusting and creepy because you could not feel your own skin...and it never felt like you got clean while doing it. I ripped that nonsense hardware out and called. "Hey...Culligan Man!" to come and get his gear. So if I may offer a suggestion to you, Mr. Pink... unless you have showered in a home that has all this expensive water softening equipment and found it to your liking... try this idea out before you buy and install a complete system and discover it not everything its cracked up to be.

I don't have hard water problems or spots on my dinnerware. The stamement of me wanting to put in a whole house filter is different than a softener... there is more than one type of filter device out there. It is also personal preference, and just like everything out there it gets ripped apart by people because thats not how things were when they were raised.

I'm not taking credit for this info, this is a responce to the complaint you had about using a water softener that I found online.

In the end to each his own.

Most soap is made with compounds of sodium and potassium, such as sodium stearate. Sodium stearate reacts with the calcium compounds in hard water and produces calcium stearate. The ingredient found in soaps, sodium stearate, dissolves in water; however calcium stearate, the compound formed by the combination of hard water and soap does not dissolve. This means less lather for you and more soap curd. This is the deposit and residue of the combination of soap and hard water that is left on your skin.

When a person uses soft water, it leaves the skin feeling smooth and silky. However, because many of us were raised in parts of the country where the water is hard, some people describe skin washed in soft water as having an oily feel instead of the “squeaky clean” feeling they are used to. Because the soap deposit and residue are not blocking your pores as they do with hard water, your natural body oils come to the surface and act as a natural moisturizer. Soft water rinses your skin and hair better than hard water and a much smaller quantity of soap is needed. If you think I am crazy…contact your favorite soap maker or read the fine print of your water using appliances…they will also tell you so.

This is a chemistry question that requires a chemical answer. There are
many 'common sense' answers that don't do the problem justice. First,
soap is made by heating animal fat (triglyceride fats) with lye (sodium
hydroxide). The lye (NaOH) gives up its OH group and separates the
glycerine from its three fatty acid molecules. This produces one molecule
of glycerol and three ionically-bonded molecules of sodium stearate
(soap). This sodium salt will give up its sodium ion to a water
solution. The stearate will subsequently precipitate if it comes in
contact with an ion that wants to hold on to it more strongly. Calcium
and magnesium are the usual culprits when 'hard water' is used in the
shower. The resulting calcium and/or magnesium stearate make the ever-
popular 'bathtub ring'. Sodium stearate (soap) is comprised of a single
sodium ion attached to a single stearate ion. This combination is
soluble. Calcium and magnesium each have two places to form bonds and
each of these metallic ions can combine with two stearate ions. This
resulting molecule is insoluble in water and is rinsed away in the shower
spary. This same 'bathtub ring' is an ingredient in many candy-like
products. Look on the ingredients list of say, Tic Tacs and you will see
magnesium stearate! They synthesize the product and do not scrape it from
the inside of their bathtubs after the Saturday night cleanup.

Now enter the soft water. You have removed the calcium and magnesium ions
from the water and have replaced them with sodium. There is no tendency
to remove the sodium from the sodium stearate (soap) and therefore, no
tendency to form an inosluble compound. The surface of your skin has
enough electrical charges in the form of amino acids, to cause the
stearate ion to lightly cling to it. The soft water has a much reduced
ability to combine with the soap film on your body and therefore, it is
much more difficult to rinse off.

The answer? Use much less soap and accept the less than clean rinse
characteristics, or change to a synthetic detergent (a 'syndet') in the
form of a liquid body wash. Adjust the amount of this synthetic cleaner
and you should get much better results from your shower experience.

[60dgrzbelow0]

Thanks for such a well thought out and explored response. Mr. Pink, you are nothing if not one of the best critical thinkers we have on the forum. I understand your idea about water filtration and concur with your notion of a fully-filtered system in your home. I have installed (and will have to replace these soon) several filters in the drinking water spigot at the kitchen sink and a large one one interfaces the 1/4" copper tubing that feeds my ice maker. The "potable" water in this country is far less than being as healthy for us as it should be. As a sad example... I have only to refer to my sick next door neighbor, Bob who came down with Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma after some idiot put a water softener system in with about 20' of PVC irrigation piping some 15 years ago. When I found out about it, he was undergoing chemo and later bone marrow transplants. I offered to (and eventually did) rip out all of that water-miscible Poly-Vinyl Chloride shit and I installed all new copper piping for him while he was in rehab. (You can see the poor man in my post called "INTEKATASTROPHE" where he accidentally blew up $1,400.00 B&S engine on his Sears Craftsman Tractor and I had to help him with the repair.

For all of us down here...drinking water straight from the tap is a no-no. The only thing I have to watch out for is that after all the chlorine and bug killing agents have been removed that the spigots have to be kept clean from mold and mildew building up around the nozzle (that....and trying to discourage the cats from trying to sip from the end of it from time to time...Yukkk) Your other observation on the subject of taste as matter of preference peculiar to "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" is also well received and agreed upon. To each his own...for sure.,

[3400-95-Modified]

Thanks for such a well thought out and explored response. Mr. Pink, you are nothing if not one of the best critical thinkers we have on the forum.

Not sure if I should take that seriously or if you were being sarcastic here...

I was thinking of doing simply an under sink filtration system, but when I found the one that is self cleaning and is about as good as the under sink ones and doesn't require any filters then I wanted to go for it. Unfortunately with my current configuration as noted I don't have a drain near where the water comes into the house, so I have quite possibly two options, I can intercept the water line in a different location which is closer to my basement shower drain and install some sort of system that will allow it to use that drain to clean itself, OR run a new incoming line from where the supply is, all the way over to where my washing machine is and then have to backtrack to where the original line first splits off.

Option one is preferred over two since that would require much less pipe changes.

Your neighbor's incident that you speak of, that is why some people should just be barred from doing any type of home installations. As well as the lack of attention when his home got inspected during purchase... That should have been found and corrected before he bought the house, and its a shame that it wasn't.

[60dgrzbelow0]

Mr. Pink... If you knew me in "The Real World" ...you'd know that I don't have a sarcastic bone in my body. The truth is, I value sound thought too much to mention it here on the open forum as a trivial matter, so my compliment to you can be accepted on the face of it as being a sincere observation. I only have to harken to the post you made about your timing chain woes way back when as a prime example of someone properly thrashing out a difficult mechanical problem in a logical manner and using good thinking skills and experience to overcome his difficulty. Regarding your ideas about the filtration system... perhaps you can adapt using some of the new Fresh Water Synthetic Piping that has been approved for use in human water consumption (its a bright blue color vs the old white PVC and has a different chemistry in its manufacture). In many of the new homes...this stuff can be run up through the walls to the attic without the usual aggravation of hard line copper soldering and the swaging couplings and the material are supposed to last as long as a copper pipe would in a similar application. This would solve the usual aggravation of all the pre-existing water lines that are molded underneath the poured foundation of your home. It installs fast and poses no fire hazard in putting the sections together.

As for my poor neighbor Bob... when I found out how sick he was, I just could not believe it. Somehow, God takes care of Drunks and Babies ...and occasionally, Poor Slobs like Bob...who after suffering from so much chemo-therapy that failed... the medical marvel geniuses over at Morton Plant Hospital allowed him into an experimental group to try one last ditch effort with destroying his entire blood and immune system with massive doses of radiation...and then giving him two bone marrow transplants...the first failed...but the second one took and he has been alive now over a year since it was done. He has someone else's blood type and a normal immune response and the disease has not red-emerged...but sadly...so much radiation has left him so very feeble-minded that I have to remind myself to treat him like a child at times in order to continue helping him out of trouble...ie, when he blew up his $1,400.00 INTEK Tractor Motor. By the way...his wife also came down with NHL as well...but her treatments worked early on and were also successful. I have such unbridled rage for the incompetency of the people allowed to build our dwellings and I almost cheer for the hero on "Holmes on Homes" when I watch his shows where he salvages houses for people.

One last thought.... Everyone who works on anything with a V6 Engine in it should visit your link to the sound of your car whenever they are tired and discouraged from a long and tedious repair to be reminded of why we do what we do here... It is my favorite automotive Youtube and I never tire of seeing it and hearing that engine idling. It is the essence of what we are all striving for, so the props are all yours...

http://s257.photobucket.com/albums/hh201/3400modified/Beretta/?action=view&current=caridle001.mp4

http://s257.photobucket.com/albums/hh201/3400modified/Beretta/?action=view&current=MVI_0102.flv

[bszopi]

perhaps you can adapt using some of the new Fresh Water Synthetic Piping that has been approved for use in human water consumption (its a bright blue color vs the old white PVC and has a different chemistry in its manufacture)

Its called PEX, and actually comes in several different colors than just blue... http://www.pexsupply.com/pex?gclid=C...FcPt7Qod7W19bA Although it can be somewhat easier than standard copper piping, it requires special tools for cutting, crimping, etc. I am all for it, just stating some facts.

[pocket-rocket]

I use PEX every day at work building RV's. Ours come in a clearish whitish color with blue and red print depending on if it's hot or cold line. There are 3 methods of joining it together (I've used all 3 in my days of doing plumbing in RV's and manufactured houses)- two of which use crimp rings.

The first style uses copper fittings with copper crimp rings that are crushed in the end of the tool.





The second style uses crimp rings similar to how our CV axle boots are clamped.





The style I use at Keystone is a barbed/compression style fitting and only requires pliers to make connections. My partner uses a small pair of channel locks, I use small curved jaw Robogrips. Just unscrew the nut, slide it over the end of the pex, press the fitting in the end of the pex, push the nut back down and tighten. Crimp styles are faster, but much more expensive.



Pex can be cut with a utility knife, but it can be dangerous, so I wouldn't suggest it. Get some ABS pipe cutters or something like that.