i can't, I won't, and I don't stop

[Superdave]

JBP was selling double roller chains for the 3400 for the last 4-6 years, supposedly doing the same thing that you had posted in your other topic. Not sure how many they sold though..

check out Curtis's page.. he built a 3.1 for his cavalier that was making around 500 WHP on iron heads.. over .600 lift on a custom solid roller cam, 20 PSI. http://www.turboz24.com/Specs.htm

BTW, don't believe everything you read about the TGP, many people have taken those engines apart to find that they are really nothing special. a while back someone contacted Mclaren and asked for specifics.. even they said it was just a stock 3.1 MPFI that they slapped a different UIM on and added a turbo. they were tuned rich enough to be reliable and still make decent HP.

[Canyonero]

I really wish I knew the difference before I dropped the iron head in my rig. But I will not make that mistake next time! I have the Curato book too. It's an excellent resource, but there is a reason it's out of print.

[powerdoctor]

Thank you dave.

Does he have a page with pics?
Or on another site?

Yes the book farts dust, but the principals are the same.
The internal combustion engine has not changed that much in over the last 50 years.
That is the book I was reading when it came out for tips on these engines, and that was 13 years ago.
I graduated in 93' and was already wiring competition systems and very light modification of engines, adding cams and what not.

I do want you and the guys to realize i am not machining these engines personally.
I drop my block off, say " I want this block bored to a safe point (usually the biggest bore I can ) and give then the piston specs, or a piston, which I pick by application, and have them bore it with it's clearances, which vary depending on app.
I then take take the setup, ( after filing the rings and grinding down the crank ) to the balancer.
He wieghs and balances my assemblies.
I get the stuff back, assemble it, check tolerances and put it together.

Can I do the machine work.. some.
I have run lathes, bridge ports, punches, brakes, line bores ect...
I have even done some small cnc progrmimng before, just making sure tolerances were kept, addjusting for bit wear and changing bit ect...

Do I machine anymore? ... no.
Do I claim to be a machinist?
No.

But I have assembled alot of engines, blew alot up, and have seen first hand on the street and track what lives and dies.

Could I cryogenicaly freeze my block, put in extended sleaves that sit above the deck and chamfer the heads so they slide together with a carbon fiber head gasket.... ect.... probably, but whats the point?

How much power do you really need?

I am content with a little v6, not because I have too, I could put a v 12 in it if I wanted, but it makes enough power to make the car fun, not mess with my handling like a 350 swap, and I have something unique...

[Superdave]

his main page is www.turboz24.com

I think he got tired of breaking FWD trannies and axles, last i heard the engine was going into a MGB.

[sprucegagt]

Heres an example of what I am talking about.

I will use a 305 as a start.

The 305 has a 3.736" bore with a 3.480" stroke.
The 3.4 rwd has a 3.622" bore with a 3.307" stroke.

In 1988 the rated out put of the 305 with mpfi, like a fiero, fire bird ect... was 240 H.P. at 4000 rpm.

http://chevy.jpbconcepts.com/1c7o7.html

This engine ran about a 180 cc intake on the heads and had the same rod as the 3.4, about the same bore, and stroke, and valves with a .465" inch lift cam, and 9.0/ 1 compression give or take.

If you divide the 240 by 8 you get 30 H.P. per cyl.
30 H.P. x 6 = 180 H.P.

So a stock mpfi 3.4 with iron heads should make this power with its iron heads, like the 305.

A stock 302 H.O. 1990 with 175 cc heads, mpfi rated at 225 H.P. with only a supercharger can make almost 400 H.P.

400 H.P. divided by 8 cyl. = 50 H.P. x 6 cyl for a v6 rating = 300 H.P.
The 302 H.O. has similar bore stroke and head cc, as a 3.4 rwd.
It makes that kind of power with a .444 lift cam.

Now take that 300 H.P. and through my 200 H.P. N.O.S. shot on it and you have 500 H.P.

You sure you have 20+ years of hands on experience or is it really 2 years of reading rice rags. Nobody ever calculates HP output using this method, nevermind that the HP output on a supercharged engine never equals a turbo engine, even if they are at the same boost level. I won't even bother with the whole N.O.S. reference or 200 HP claim.

[powerdoctor]

It was just a simplified example of 175 cc heads being able to make power.

That was the original arguement.

I simply gave refrences of engines with roughly 175cc intake runners, with about the same bore and stroke, that make lots of power.

Since they were v8's I cut the power x 8 and then multiplied it x 6.

It was an example.... hello ?????

This is what I am talking about with you guys on this site.

I am not going to post a whole mathematical equasion with flow of the heads, radians per second and force ect...

It was just an example of 175cc head engines that make power.

If I over simplify things, then you guys make it way to over complicated.

How many of these young kids are going to understand your #'s and specs?

If a young guy came here and read some of your posts, they would think its impossible to build one of these engines due to the over complications you guys post.

And heaven forbid they have worked on engines and try to tell about it...
if they didn't have "EXACT" specs they would last 2 seconds here.

I am a tech and a mechanic and DO have 20 years of experience, and I am about fed up with this site for that reason alone.

Everytime I have been challenged I have come back strong with an answer for you guys, but how many young guys starting off will be able to do that, plus I am confident enough to sit and put up with it and post my replies.

Its just rediculous is what I am saying, I post a GENERAL and simplified response and look what I get....

Then I ask a real question and no one wants to reply... instead you guys post more crap and try to pic apart my post and hide behind you eqasions.

Nice guys... nice.

[Canyonero]

How many of these young kids are going to understand your #'s and specs?

I've learned to trust people whom have built my confidence that what they're saying is true.

If a young guy came here and read some of your posts, they would think its impossible to build one of these engines due to the over complications you guys post.

Hardly, I think they would learn the limitations that need to be addressed in order to make real-world performance. I HAVE put an iron head in my car, and now I KNOW that to get substantially more power I need aluminum. I wish I would have come and asked first.

And heaven forbid they have worked on engines and try to tell about it...
if they didn't have "EXACT" specs they would last 2 seconds here.

Post proof that your mods produce real performance. Go finish it.

I am a tech and a mechanic and DO have 20 years of experience

That's fine. But you can't say that these guys don't have similar or greater experience. You get defensive about your mods, and that's why every thread you start has deteriorated. I understand you've put a lot of thought into these mods and spent a lot of time on them, but that doesn't change the fact that you aren't going to get what you think out of them.

[powerdoctor]

Cool, but I never once said I have more experience, or know more than anyone here.

I'm only 32, how much more will I learn by 42.... a shitload!

For my age, what I know now is still alot more than alot of techs twice my age and I have had alot of experience.

I am not the power " professor" or "master" or "god"

I am a doctor... lmao.

And I do love to help out others and try my best to not lead them down the wrong path.

Yes aluminum heads flow better than the iron, but to me iron will always be stronger and I can beat them harder and make up for lost N/A flow by boosting the system.

I am not pushing my veiws here, simply stateing my thoughts.

If I had an N/A engine, sure I would use the 3500 heads Ect...

But for boost and nos, I'd rather run iron...

Thanx for not being an ass and actually conversing with me... really, thanx.

[bszopi]

From the link you posted above, the engine you appear to be quoting (240hp @4000rpm) looks to be a 350, not a 305. The way that chart is laid out is pretty bad, so its hard to tell. But I like how you picked what is possibly the highest rated 305 (again, depending on how you read the chart).

The more you try to defend yourself, the more you keep digging the hole deeper. Hence the reason people continue to question your responses.

As far as experience goes, we are the same age, graduated the same year, etc. For 20 years experience, that would mean you've been working on engines since you were 12. I can say that I started working on engines with my dad when I was 9, so does that mean I have 23 years experience? I would never make that claim. I rebuilt my first engine (400SBC) when I was 17, and have been working on cars as a hobby since I was 14. But even I know that I don't know it all. I know a TON about these engines, but I learn something new all the time.

Maybe you should just stop where you are at, stop trying to come back to make yourself look right, and just go with the flow. You will get more respect that way.

[powerdoctor]

The reason I picked the highest rated 5.0, 305 sbc was just to show what these "small" port engines are capable of.

No one really pushes 305's as being powerfull, but they can be, so I posted those figures.

There just seems to be a trend to cling to factory gm specs here, just because GM says its so , does not mean it is.
Gm screws with specs to stay in "competition" with cars in thier cars class.
Its politics...

If the "newer" way of rating H.P. is with all of the accesories on the engine, then the iron head 3.4 made a BHP of 160 with all of its accesories on it.

So if I drop the powersteering, A/C, add an electric fan and do nothing else, I should free up some H.P. , right?

So even if the A/C was good for robbing only 5 hp, and the fan with clutch robbed another 5hp, and the powersteering robbed only 5 hp, that would still be a net gain of 15 hp, and a conservitive 15 hp.

So now were up to 175.

Add headers, an exhuast, a cam, a cam and a tune, you would still be making more power, probably over 200 hp.

I started doing alarms and stereo systems at about 12/13 on my own.

I rebuilt my first engine at 14 when my cavalier blew up do to carying 8 12" cerwin vega subs in the back.

So If you want to be technical then I have 18 years of engines and 20 on cars in general.

I was a working certified mechanic at 19, still learning about "high performance" and practicing it as well.

At 25 I went a got my D.B.A. and have been self employed ever since.

An engine is an engine though... what aplies to one has bearing on all.

A 12 cylinder 5.7 lambo engine is no different than a 1.8 escort engine, or a briggs 5 horse, just bigger.

So again I am sorry if it seemed like I was acting like you all suck and I rule... that was not my intention.

I know cnc guy has alot of sweet crap he makes and I would love to work with him on parts for these engines.

Forced firebird has alot of good input...

Just realize I do as well, thats all.

I really do like this site, and I want to help with the forums, and maybe give a different point of view, fresh ideas, ect.... and hear other points of view.

Is that not how we learn more and expand our minds ?

[sprucegagt]

That's fine. But you can't say that these guys don't have similar or greater experience. You get defensive about your mods, and that's why every thread you start has deteriorated. I understand you've put a lot of thought into these mods and spent a lot of time on them, but that doesn't change the fact that you aren't going to get what you think out of them.

I couldn't of said it any better.

Powerdoctor, this is an enthusiast site. When you don't use hard numbers and specs, it immediately draws a red flag. Add in assumptions like 300 HP N/A plus a 200 HP Nitrous shot (er.. should I say N.O.S.) = 500 HP, and well you come off like a poser, not someone with 20 years of experience.

[powerdoctor]

I can understand that too...

I would of probably jumped on my ass as well for the first post.

But maybe subconsiously thats what I wanted, to test this site and see what kind of guru's lurk here ... ; )

Thank you once again bud.

[ForcedFirebird]

Can't we all just get along in the sandbox?

[IsaacHayes]

BTW A/C doesn't rob any horsepower unless you are driving with it ON... Otherwise it's a free spinning pulley. Besides, when you got WOT it kicks it off anyways.... :P

[powerdoctor]

Oh, the length of the belt and the extra pulley is parasitic drag, lmao, got any exact specs on that ....

I'm just messing with ya...

!!!!! BOSCHE PLUGS RULE !!!!!